tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post5882168671848198610..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: A Closer Look at David Waltz’s ObjectionsJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-91637138169255835422011-04-01T15:09:17.250-04:002011-04-01T15:09:17.250-04:00If all you have to offer is a vapid riposte couple...If all you have to offer is a vapid riposte coupled with sanctimonious piety, there's nothing of substance left to engage.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-70061308226466036962011-04-01T13:47:39.284-04:002011-04-01T13:47:39.284-04:00Hello Matthew,
An interesting response for sure; ...Hello Matthew,<br /><br />An interesting response for sure; you wrote:<br /><br />== That you would use Raymond's list is sufficient in of itself to show that your charge is not to be taken seriously. Raymond's charges were false for various reasons, as noted in the thread you linked.==<br /><br />Me: Subjective pleading and sophistry are not proofs in my book. <br /><br />>>It's apparent you're grasping for anything that will cast us in a poor light.>><br /><br />Me: Right...<br /><br />==I think you will find (as have I) that you have entered into a sea of double-standards.<br /><br />You have no evidence for the charge.==<br /><br />Me: I have listed numerous double-standards in the past, but, once again, they are deflected with subjective pleading and sophistry; it would be redundant, and a waster of my time, to reproduce what has already be posted.<br /><br />>>And do you even know what our standards are?>><br /><br />Me: Depends on scope of "our".<br /><br />==You gratuitously extol our critics as virtuous==<br /><br />Me: Baloney, I have not done so.<br /><br />==while denouncing us as deeply hostile==<br /><br />Me: Not "deeply hostile", just hostile (please try to refrain from putting words into my mouth).<br /><br />==and inconsistent,==<br /><br />Me: It is inconsistent to whine about someone else's action(s) while engaging in the same action(s).<br /><br />==all the while claiming you want us to have grace and peace,==<br /><br />Me: I sincerely hope that you (and anyone else I extend it to) will truly have grace and peace in their lives—to suggest otherwise is yet but one more example of hostility.<br /><br />==and that you are a patient, long-suffering person.==<br /><br />Me: I do...wow, that is news to me.<br /><br />==You try to paint yourself as taking the high road, but this is belied by your calumnious posture.==<br /><br />Me: So I am slanderer??? Nice slander Matthew...<br /><br />==It's all rather distasteful behavior.==<br /><br />Me: Well, at least you are consistent with YOUR calumnious behavior.<br /><br /><br />May grace and peace enter into your life (you need it brother),<br /><br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-29807474218280647762011-04-01T11:45:49.833-04:002011-04-01T11:45:49.833-04:00David,
That you would use Raymond's list is s...David,<br /><br />That you would use Raymond's list is sufficient in of itself to show that your charge is not to be taken seriously. Raymond's charges were false for various reasons, as noted in the thread you linked. It's apparent you're grasping for anything that will cast us in a poor light.<br /><br /><i>I think you will find (as have I) that you have entered into a sea of double-standards.</i><br /><br />You have no evidence for the charge. And do you even know what our standards are?<br /><br />You gratuitously extol our critics as virtuous while denouncing us as deeply hostile and inconsistent, all the while claiming you want us to have grace and peace, and that you are a patient, long-suffering person. You try to paint yourself as taking the high road, but this is belied by your calumnious posture. It's all rather distasteful behavior.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-74198366146452780582011-04-01T09:20:12.673-04:002011-04-01T09:20:12.673-04:00Well hello there David, grace and peace, etc., etc...Well hello there David, grace and peace, etc., etc., and if anyone dares not to assent to our words, let him be anathema...John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-40759934102762408412011-04-01T09:14:31.166-04:002011-04-01T09:14:31.166-04:00Hi Agellius,
If you have not yet already discerne...Hi Agellius,<br /><br />If you have not yet already discerned this, BA is a hostile environment for any who dare to question it's Reformed contributors and their supporters. You will find, with just a bit of research, that most of the charges that are brought to bear upon the non-Reformed folk who make attempts to offer alternatives to type polemics offered here, are usually practiced by the individual(s) who raises those charges.<br /><br />Just recently, a gent who posts under the name Raymond, brought to light but few of the numerous examples of such behavior: beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/03/normative-value-of-truth.html.<br /><br />I think you will find (as have I) that you have entered into a sea of double-standards.<br /><br />But with this said, if you have patience, if you can brush aside and not overly worry about the ad hominem attacks that will invariably come your way if you continue to participate here, you will find that your efforts will bear some fruit.<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-13831697992369812322011-04-01T02:43:24.833-04:002011-04-01T02:43:24.833-04:00Agellius, start at this link, and look "up&qu...Agellius, start at this link, and look "up" the discussion (that is, at comments prior) at the kinds of things Sean was saying. <br /><br />http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/the-neatly-ordered-ordinary/#comment-81763<br /><br />See how applicable or inapplicable my posting was of this definition.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-30483358656920066212011-03-31T19:57:28.707-04:002011-03-31T19:57:28.707-04:00James:
In my opinion that's just better left ...James:<br /><br />In my opinion that's just better left unsaid, that's all. As I said, I would not blame you for banning him from commenting, if in your view he had demonstrated consistent dishonesty. I just think public condemnations are a bad idea. <br /><br />Hey, that's just what I think. You are certainly free to ignore my advice.Agelliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03305597900813126268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52339827061927741792011-03-31T19:54:45.134-04:002011-03-31T19:54:45.134-04:00Turretin:
Well, I saw Sean being called a pyschop...Turretin:<br /><br />Well, I saw Sean being called a pyschopath, followed by implications of dishonesty. Did he say things that were equally insulting about James or John? If so, I would certainly admonish him in the same way. <br /><br />This is a pet peeve of mine, believe me it's not limited to Protestants. I say similar things to Catholics all the time. You can see for yourself on the Vox Nova blog. Although, that's a moderated blog, so you almost never see anything as blatantly insulting as calling someone a psychopath.Agelliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03305597900813126268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-32801267814303320922011-03-31T19:41:56.356-04:002011-03-31T19:41:56.356-04:00Would you explain how any of my sparse comments ar...Would you explain how any of my sparse comments are bad mouthing? I'm asking a question. He said one thing, he does another. Why trust him? Why trust his conversion story?James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69178141569442966042011-03-31T19:24:08.638-04:002011-03-31T19:24:08.638-04:00Agellius:
Is there some reason you don't crit...Agellius:<br /><br />Is there some reason you don't criticize Sean for badmouthing John?<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-84383117080469650522011-03-31T19:18:09.808-04:002011-03-31T19:18:09.808-04:00Agellius, go over to Called to Communion and obser...Agellius, go over to Called to Communion and observe him for a while.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-3540040294487762222011-03-31T19:10:04.085-04:002011-03-31T19:10:04.085-04:00Not saying anything about Sean's behavior sinc...Not saying anything about Sean's behavior since I don't know him. But if I were you, I would either ban him or else ignore him. Badmouthing him publicly is neither Christian nor gentlemanly.Agelliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03305597900813126268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39652328596369340962011-03-31T19:04:57.673-04:002011-03-31T19:04:57.673-04:00Turretinfan writes:
You have to love the way Sean...Turretinfan writes:<br /><br /><i>You have to love the way Sean Patrick rolls.</i><br /><br />Some people are just fundamentally childish in their online behavior. If Sean acted this way in just about any other intellectual or social environment, he would have been ostracized by even the most forgiving of people long ago. The attitude and "arguments" Sean offers as a credible witness to his faith in Rome can be described as nothing but puerile and absurd.<br /><br />It would be best if we just left him to his gratuitous bravado, unfailing use of insults, regular employment of logical fallacies, and the incorrigible heart of pride that naturally produces such contemptible behavior. His utterly embarrassing conduct at Triablogue (which culminated in posting on multiple accounts after being banned) and equally dishonest and immature public actions (such as publicly claiming he would never visit Beggars All again), have shown the blogging community that there is literally no value in engaging him or his opinions.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-16168046858953256662011-03-31T18:50:23.840-04:002011-03-31T18:50:23.840-04:00Agellius, welcome to Beggars All.
If you knew Sea...Agellius, welcome to Beggars All.<br /><br />If you knew Sean Patrick and the history that we've had with him, you'd be amazed at how charitable and restrained we have been.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-758386531744600522011-03-31T18:45:57.893-04:002011-03-31T18:45:57.893-04:00Yeah, I should trust a guy who says one thing, and...Yeah, I should trust a guy who says one thing, and does another. right.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-23840214085382797292011-03-31T18:36:09.765-04:002011-03-31T18:36:09.765-04:00James and John:
Very uncharitable comments about ...James and John:<br /><br />Very uncharitable comments about Sean, I must say.Agelliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03305597900813126268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-53871252419787840642011-03-31T17:30:13.848-04:002011-03-31T17:30:13.848-04:00You have to love the way Sean Patrick rolls. Noth...You have to love the way Sean Patrick rolls. Nothing like a good well-poisoning attempt: "John only cares about scholarship insofar as he can pull things from it that damage the Catholic Church (or that he thinks damage the Catholic Church). That is the extent of his interest."<br /><br />After concluding his opening salvo here with "your attempt here to keep him honest will undoubtedly fall on deaf ears," he then has the temerity to grouse: "I see that you played your 'don't trust Sean, he is crazy and dishonest card.' Hard to argue with those accusations. I'll leave you to your cheerleaders now."<br /><br />- TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10276017518105382372011-03-31T16:34:01.898-04:002011-03-31T16:34:01.898-04:00James, I would not be surprised if it was the Lord...James, I would not be surprised if it was the Lord who called him to Rome. He is the perfect poster child for it.<br /><br />And Dozie, you left something else out. It has been one of the most thoroughly corrupt institutions in history, and it has never repented.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-27347333783272023342011-03-31T16:31:56.044-04:002011-03-31T16:31:56.044-04:00Why should I trust Sean's version of "God...Why should I trust Sean's version of "God calling him" to the RCC, when he's vowed not to post here, and still does? His credibiltiy is a bit suspect.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-14420421282904284502011-03-31T16:30:31.099-04:002011-03-31T16:30:31.099-04:00The sad thing is that we have some people here who...The sad thing is that we have some people here whose academic credentials are at best questionable but who nonetheless have the audacity to lecture the Catholic Church on matters of scholarship. These individuals assume they have certain knowledge, historical or otherwise, which the Catholic Church is not privileged to. The Catholic Church is however not some Baptist or any other Protestant denomination; we are talking about an institution with one of the largest libraries in the word; an institution with one of the largest collections of ancient manuscripts in the world; an institution which has educated far more individuals than any other non-governmental body in the world; an institution which single-handedly built western civilization; an institution whose research library admits, by advance application, only world renowned scholars placed on waiting list; an institution who gave the world the university system. Yet we have people of questionable scholarship, and some admitting to be no scholars at all, attempting to lecture the Catholic Church on scholarship. Sad and shameful, in deed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85281847015580323502011-03-31T16:28:48.620-04:002011-03-31T16:28:48.620-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Sean Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398268430101758469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10624295211068277172011-03-31T16:24:16.000-04:002011-03-31T16:24:16.000-04:00How many times now have you vowed not to come back...How many times now have you vowed not to come back here?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80682286660929664602011-03-31T16:23:33.857-04:002011-03-31T16:23:33.857-04:00John.
I see that you played your 'don't t...John.<br /><br />I see that you played your 'don't trust Sean, he is crazy and dishonest card.' <br /><br />Hard to argue with those accusations. I'll leave you to your cheerleaders now. <br /><br />Maybe step outside of the confines of BA sometime and actually interact with people about what you are 'railing against' all the time? Just a suggestion.Sean Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398268430101758469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-79186734866859168362011-03-31T16:20:55.874-04:002011-03-31T16:20:55.874-04:00That's why you gotta rail against every schola...<i>That's why you gotta rail against every scholar who gets posted, whereas, I can understand and support what they say.</i><br /><br />I think you have me confused with somebody else. <br /><br />I don't rail against scholarship. I appreciate good scholarship, even if and when I disagree with certain conclusions at times (just like you apparently). <br /><br />Called to communion lists many scholarly works in our library section. See <a href="http://www.calledtocommunion.com/library/suggested-reading/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. You will find names like Guarducci, Rivington, Congar, Lindsay, Allies, Soloviev, Fortescue, Giles, Bellito etc. Many of those scholars and others deal with similar themes that your scholars are dealing with but come to different conclusions. <br /><br />So, it is off the mark to suggest that I 'rail against scholars.' <br /><br />What you need to do is interact with this observation which I posted a minute ago: "He reserves for himself judgement to disagree with the scholars that he is telling Catholics they are forced to accept. John admits that he is not playing by the same set of rules when it comes to scholarly inquiry..."<br /><br />I am not the only person who has noticed this about you. You pretty much admitted it. Given that, I wonder why you argue with Catholics about history at all? What is there to argue about?Sean Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06398268430101758469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-50994293589762154142011-03-31T16:20:09.387-04:002011-03-31T16:20:09.387-04:00Sean Patrick was obviously here simply to hit and ...Sean Patrick was obviously here simply to hit and run. <br /><br />I have personally found him to be THE most untrustworthy Roman Catholic I have ever encountered. On other threads, I have published the definition of the word "psychopath", once others described what it was like to interact with him. It was amazing how closely their definitions of him and the official definition of "psychopath" seemed to align with each other.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.com