tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post5359814339512750870..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Maximus the Confessor on the Authority of Rome and Galatians 1:8James Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-32604347456821106802012-02-10T13:18:56.681-05:002012-02-10T13:18:56.681-05:00TF
///He can answer the hypothetical questions wit...TF<br />///He can answer the hypothetical questions without trusting anyone, so my point stands.///<br /><br />///The quotation provided by Mr. Swan shows that Maximus was open to the possibility that the church of Rome (which up to that point had stood firm on the point) would fall into error.///<br /><br />Once you have reduced the matter to a hypothetical you’ve placed yourself back into the answer that Nick explained, which gets your claim nowhere because you both agreed that<br />1. Paul placed himself in the category of those who could hypothetically be accursed.<br />2. Paul’s teachings were infallible under certain conditions.<br /><br />This leaves open the possibility that Maximus saw Rome as being infallible in a similar manner to Paul’s teachings which means that they were also protected from error under certain circumstances. And so the ambiguity could be used to demonstrate Maximus' belief in some kind of Roman infallibility just as much as it could be used as an argument against it. But given the fact that Paul is one of the referrents in the scriptural quote, it stands to reason that the argument for some form of Roman infallibility is stronger than the one against it.<br /><br />///What "imprisonment" do you have in mind?///<br /><br />Maximus was arrested and imprisoned prior to, during, and after his trial until he died.costrowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924527983856388624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54573652597003009812012-02-09T08:52:05.992-05:002012-02-09T08:52:05.992-05:00@Tfan
"You seem to be hung up not on what he...@Tfan<br /><br />"You seem to be hung up not on what he has said in the passage Mr. Swan quoted, but on this "immovable rock" characterization elsewhere."<br /><br />Not really. I think I am trying to find some continuity. However, if it looks as if I am avoiding Mr Swan's quotation then I can assure you that that was not my intention. <br /><br />"By the time of the account provided by Mr. Swan, he could have shifted his views"<br /><br />That's an interesting thought. Do you have proof that he could have? <br /><br />"the flourish can just be chalked up to rhetorical hyperbole"<br /><br />Possible! But then, I am inclined to believe that Maximus (let's not forget the times in which he was living) wouldn't have been frivolous with words like "God established His custom of always shedding His grace" and remember this is upon Rome who Maximus says is immovable rock. <br />Now, either God does or doesn't. And to see what the man believed and suffered for, and to then claim that he didn't firmly believe this about Rome - I personally can't see it. But then again, I could be wrong.Jim Patonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16468940799078913115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75554937809117696402012-02-08T17:30:06.873-05:002012-02-08T17:30:06.873-05:00Mr. Paton:
Thank you for the kind tone of your co...Mr. Paton:<br /><br />Thank you for the kind tone of your comment, but there's something I don't follow.<br /><br />You seem to be hung up not on what he has said in the passage Mr. Swan quoted, but on this "immovable rock" characterization elsewhere.<br /><br />But that characterization (in a much earlier writing, it seems - assuming that the comment is authentic) was really a flourish in passing, whilst relating the ploy used by the Roman apocrisiarii (legates to Constantinople) and its effect.<br /><br />By the time of the account provided by Mr. Swan, he could have shifted his views. But we don't even have to assume that - the flourish can just be chalked up to rhetorical hyperbole.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80394138460223215722012-02-08T17:27:13.833-05:002012-02-08T17:27:13.833-05:00costrowski:
He can answer the hypothetical questi...costrowski:<br /><br />He can answer the hypothetical questions without trusting anyone, so my point stands.<br /><br /><br />"You're jumping the gun here because you haven't established that Maximus beleived that the pope fell into error."<br /><br />The quotation provided by Mr. Swan shows that Maximus was open to the possibility that the church of Rome (which up to that point had stood firm on the point) would fall into error.<br /><br />Whether or not he believed that the church fell into error later in his life is a different question.<br /><br />"Given the fact that prior to his imprisonment he was a strong defender of the papacy that leap seems to be completely baseless."<br /><br />He was a strong defender of the two wills. The argument that Rome agreed with him was just one of his arguments - the primary arguments being Scripture and the fathers.<br /><br />What "imprisonment" do you have in mind?<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36376650200262238482012-02-08T16:15:26.923-05:002012-02-08T16:15:26.923-05:00@Tfan,
I humbly stand corrected on what I previo...@Tfan, <br /><br />I humbly stand corrected on what I previously wrote. But I believe you proved too much. <br /><br />You wrote: “He does seem to have viewed the Roman church that way - not the Roman bishop.” i.e. that Maximus believed that the Church of Rome was “the immovable rock where God established His custom of always shedding His grace.”<br /><br /><br />Ok, if he had viewed the Church of Rome that way then the statement “They set this aside, and ask what if the church of Rome does join with the other churches?” does not ring true. <br /><br />Now, my contention is that it was not the Church of Rome that could be condemned, but rather, the bishop of Rome as the legates are his representatives. <br /><br />I don’t see how he could say that the Roman Church is an immovable rock and then say that it could preach a different gospel. This would hardly constitute immovability. So the only conclusion is that the one to be condemned would have been the bishop of Rome (if anyone was to be condemned) and not the Church of Rome. Maximus would have known the difference of what was immovable and what wasn’t. Either that or the man is a liar. I don’t believe he was.Jim Patonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16468940799078913115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41692301767409402012-02-08T15:39:38.760-05:002012-02-08T15:39:38.760-05:00TF,
Maximus didn't meet with the Roman legates...TF,<br />Maximus didn't meet with the Roman legates. He depended on a description of their doings given by the imperial legates. So, yes, comment still stands. <br /><br />///You may well have given a more accurate description than you like to admit. He does seem to have viewed the Roman church that way - not the Roman bishop. That's an important distinction that's often glossed over whenever ancient Christians say anything nice about the Rome of their day - it is just assumed that they mean "the pope," when in fact they mean the church.///<br /><br />You're jumping the gun here because you haven't established that Maximus beleived that the pope fell into error. Given the fact that prior to his imprisonment he was a strong defender of the papacy that leap seems to be completely baseless.costrowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924527983856388624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-26086215573380013862012-02-08T14:14:56.711-05:002012-02-08T14:14:56.711-05:00"All of these arguments rest on the honesty o..."All of these arguments rest on the honesty of the imperial legates as well as Maximus trusting them."<br /><br />No.<br /><br />a) The legates here are the Roman legates, not imperial legates (by this time the imperial seat was Constantinople, not Rome).<br /><br />b) The arguments don't rely on assuming that Maximus trusts anyone. It simply relies on Maximus answering the question asked.<br /><br />"But if you read the Letter to the Monks of Caligari you'll see that Maximus never trusted imperial representatives."<br /><br />He didn't trust the heretics in general, and thought they were basically servants of the devil.<br /><br />"He instructed his disciple to write to Rome to warn them of that deception and in that letter described Rome as the immovable rock where God established His custom of always shedding His grace."<br /><br />You may well have given a more accurate description than you like to admit. He does seem to have viewed the Roman church that way - not the Roman bishop. That's an important distinction that's often glossed over whenever ancient Christians say anything nice about the Rome of their day - it is just assumed that they mean "the pope," when in fact they mean the church.<br /><br />"Nick covers this in his article as well as has translations of the primary works."<br /><br />No comment.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80679078006472843382012-02-08T09:36:15.267-05:002012-02-08T09:36:15.267-05:00All of these arguments rest on the honesty of the ...All of these arguments rest on the honesty of the imperial legates as well as Maximus trusting them. But if you read the Letter to the Monks of Caligari you'll see that Maximus never trusted imperial representatives. He instructed his disciple to write to Rome to warn them of that deception and in that letter described Rome as the immovable rock where God established His custom of always shedding His grace. <br /><br />Nick covers this in his article as well as has translations of the primary works.costrowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924527983856388624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-72262515940549862672012-02-08T08:54:46.406-05:002012-02-08T08:54:46.406-05:00No, "the Romans" is the church of Rome, ...No, "the Romans" is the church of Rome, Mr. Paton.<br /><br />Walk through the quotation.<br /><br />1) "And what will you do if the Romans unite with the Byzantines? For behold, yesterday there came legates of Rome and tomorrow on Sunday they will take communion with the patriarch; it will become evident to all that it was you who turned the Romans away. Doubtless with you removed, there will then be an easy union." <br /><br />They pose this as an argument that it is going to be just Maximus against all the major churches.<br /><br />2) "Those who are coming cannot in any way prejudice the see of Rome, even if they should take communion because they have not brought a letter to the patriarch. And I am not at all convinced that the Romans will unite with them unless they confess that our Lord and God by nature both wills and works our salvation according to each of the natures from which he is, in which he is, as well as which he is." <br /><br />But, you see, Maximus is too clever. He points out that the mere communion of the legates is not enough to show that the Roman church is in agreement with Constantinople, because they don't bear a letter to that effect addressed to the patriarch.<br /><br />3) "And if the Romans should come to terms with them at this time, what will you do?" <br /><br />They set this aside, and ask what if the church of Rome does join with the other churches?<br /><br /><br />4) "The Holy Spirit, according to the Apostle, condemns even angels who sanction anything against what has been preached"<br /><br />Maximus refuses to assent, even under that circumstance.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52196348462051845692012-02-08T06:06:51.942-05:002012-02-08T06:06:51.942-05:00Mr Fan
Reading further only serves to prove my po...Mr Fan<br /><br />Reading further only serves to prove my point. <br /><br />"And if the Romans should come to terms with them at this time, what will you do?"<br /><br />The "Romans" are the legates. Maximus makes the distinction between them and the see of Rome. He states that they "cannot in any way prejudice the see of Rome.”<br /><br />You fail to make the distinction. I wonder why that is?Jim Patonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16468940799078913115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-81936349260267890042012-02-07T14:29:36.016-05:002012-02-07T14:29:36.016-05:00Mr. Paton,
Keep reading what they asked him after...Mr. Paton,<br /><br />Keep reading what they asked him <i>after</i> that.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-40878957022700084122012-02-06T19:16:48.080-05:002012-02-06T19:16:48.080-05:00Tfan = "In any event, the point is this, even...Tfan = "In any event, the point is this, even if Rome taught it, Maximus would not believe it."<br /><br />Maximus = "THOSE(legates)who are coming cannot in any way prejudice the see of Rome.”<br /><br />Tfan = "You and people in your shoes cannot say that."<br /> <br />Maximus (Well, not really)= "I'm not saying what you think I'm saying"Jim Patonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16468940799078913115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41480988321170271722012-02-06T16:10:40.270-05:002012-02-06T16:10:40.270-05:00"Maximus addresses that very "one will&q..."Maximus addresses that very "one will" quote of Honorius and says it's actually orthodox."<br /><br />If you read through to the end of my brief comment, you'll find that I point out Maximus' attempt to justify Honorius. Of course, he was wrong according to a subsequent "ecumenical" council and centuries' worth of Roman bishops, but yes - Maximus tried to argue that Honorius was actually orthodox.<br /><br />"Maximus could have been thinking the political persecution could get so bad that the Pope or certain high members could cave in under pressure, but in that case it wouldn't be an infallible declaration."<br /><br />Maximus certainly wasn't thinking that the bishop of Rome was ever capable of making infallible declarations by virtue of his office. As for the rest, perhaps yes - he may have suspected that persecution might produce the result of changed opinion (expressed).<br /><br />Maximus died in 662. So, I'm pretty sure that any synod of 694 is out of the question. Perhaps you mean the Lateran synod of 649? <br /><br />In any event, the point is this - even if Rome taught it, Maximus would not believe it. You and people in your shoes cannot say that.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-11470247227501234162012-02-06T15:47:30.027-05:002012-02-06T15:47:30.027-05:00I don't have a lot of context of James' qu...<i>I don't have a lot of context of James' quote,</i><br /><br />Oh you've got to be kidding. Why in the world would you want to get involved with something you haven't even read?<br /><br />What is it with you guys? This is the second time in about a month someone decided to teach me how to interpret documents they haven't actually read.<br /><br />FYI, that Maximus book is very affordable.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-84660382267811273822012-02-06T14:55:46.140-05:002012-02-06T14:55:46.140-05:00If you go to the link I presented above, Maximus a...If you go to the link I presented above, Maximus addresses that very "one will" quote of Honorius and says it's actually orthodox. <br /><br />If he saw Rome as of little consequence or on par with everyone else, then his talk here and elsewhere extolling Rome would make little sense.<br /><br />I don't have a lot of context of James' quote, but Maximus could have been thinking the political persecution could get so bad that the Pope or certain high members could cave in under pressure, but in that case it wouldn't be an infallible declaration. Consider the fact Maximus was well aware Rome was firmly on his side during the previous years (e.g. 694 Lateran Synod which Maximus attended) in opposing the heresy and that at this point he was well aware that there were false legates going around lying and that Pope Martin was kidnapped and persecuted.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-91601851953762606022012-02-06T13:39:09.763-05:002012-02-06T13:39:09.763-05:00"I can say the Pope as a human is capable of ..."I can say the Pope as a human is capable of falling into heresy, but having infallibility he will not when teaching dogmatically."<br /><br />Your church does say that. On the other hand, that claim is not really consistent with Paul's teaching in Galatians.<br /><br />"So the Pope could cave into heresy on a personal level, and that doesn't effect his infallibility anymore than Paul could cave into heresy on a personal level."<br /><br />It doesn't effect his infallibility <i>as narrowly defined by Rome</i> even when the pope in his official capacity as pope teaches heresy, so long as he doesn't do it with the intent to bind the whole church.<br /><br />"But in practice, I don't see any evidence he did, much less an example that would qualify as teaching error dogmatically."<br /><br />Honorius wrote (as bishop of Rome, in that capacity): <i>"Wherefore we acknowledge one Will of our Lord Jesus Christ, for evidently it was our nature and not the sin in it which was assumed by the Godhead, that is to say, the nature which was created before sin, not the nature which was vitiated by sin."</i> For that he was condemned posthumously by councils and subsequent bishops of Rome as a monothelite.<br /><br />"I interpret Maximus as believing Rome never would fall into error in virtue of infallibility, as well as the fact Rome never had."<br /><br />Your interpretation isn't grounded in Maximus' answer. When posed with the question of what happened if/when Rome acceded to Constantinople's position, Maximus neither said, "I will observe whatever Most Holy Rome teaches," nor did he say, "Rome cannot err as you have suggested," but instead said that he would stick to his guns. Right?<br /><br />Maybe he thought that Rome would not agree. He didn't want to believe that Honorius himself was a monothelite, and tried to argue that Honorius was simply saying that there were not two <i>contrary</i> wills.<br /><br />Whether he thought Rome would or would not agree, however, Maximus did not say what you interpret him as saying - instead his answer suggests that Rome is able to fall away, just like he felt Constantinople already had fallen away.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-2531649824540279212012-02-06T08:34:25.979-05:002012-02-06T08:34:25.979-05:00I think what's interesting about this verse is...I think what's interesting about this verse is it reveals what a rascally trickster Paul was. As we all know already, when he was in Galatia he preached the same gospel as Rome today, on submission to the pope and purgatory and sacramental systems whereby we merit salvation and using Jesus's mom as a mediator. But then he wrote to them as a kind of trick to test them, saying even if we or an angel (wink wink) should preach a different gospel (wink nudge). And then, in the rest of the letter, he proceeds to teach a different Gospel from his own self, one of faith, grace, God's promises and God's own ability to save apart from human effort. But he only did this to make sure the Galatians were paying attention to Gal 1:8, so that they'd immediately reject this "other gospel" in favor of the one he preached while there and that Rome still teaches.<br /><br />No wonder so few Roman Catholics read the Bible! They're just following Galatians 1:8! :P<br /><br />So I'm just messintg around and being silly. On a serious note, how are we not to take Galatians 1:8 as a charge to take its teachings and reject whatever does not conform to it? Even angel and apostle are to be rejected. Why am I supposed to do this with Peter and Gabriel but not the pope and cardinals?<br /><br />In Christ,<br />JLJohn Lollardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15463317544726062051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67956516236643061342012-02-06T07:23:31.403-05:002012-02-06T07:23:31.403-05:00I honestly don't see the problem here. Everyon...I honestly don't see the problem here. Everyone is capable of falling into heresy by the fact they're human; that doesn't mean they will and that doesn't mean they're infallible if they don't. Some people are given the gift of infallibility to not fall into heresy under certain circumstances. <br /><br />I can say the Pope as a human is capable of falling into heresy, but having infallibility he will not when teaching dogmatically. So the Pope could cave into heresy on a personal level, and that doesn't effect his infallibility anymore than Paul could cave into heresy on a personal level. But in practice, I don't see any evidence he did, much less an example that would qualify as teaching error dogmatically. <br /><br />I interpret Maximus as believing Rome never would fall into error in virtue of infallibility, as well as the fact Rome never had.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52893535304427683492012-02-04T22:45:46.178-05:002012-02-04T22:45:46.178-05:00Your original comment is what doesn't make sen...Your original comment is what doesn't make sense, Nick. It sounds like your original statement said that to say Paul "could" get the gospel wrong requires a general denial of infallibility.<br /><br />Now it sounds like you are saying that Paul could have fallen into heresy, it just happened that he did not. That's more like Maximus/our position.<br /><br />If you admit that Rome could fall into heresy, but just think it hasn't yet fallen into heresy, then you start to sound more like Maximus (although, of course, he wasn't passing judgment on the last 1000 years of dogmatic innovations). Is that where you stand?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-70588431397288015852012-02-04T18:45:20.049-05:002012-02-04T18:45:20.049-05:00TurretinFan,
What doesn't make sense?
(1) P...TurretinFan, <br /><br />What doesn't make sense?<br /><br />(1) Paul included himself in Gal 1:8, but he never caved into heresy.<br /><br />(2) Paul was not always infallible, but was under certain circumstances.<br /><br />(3) Gal 1:8 cannot be used to rule out the category of infallibility.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36167444425965775632012-02-04T17:43:54.981-05:002012-02-04T17:43:54.981-05:00Nick:
You wrote this: "yet we all know Paul...Nick: <br /><br />You wrote this: "yet we all know Paul never did and never would cave in to heresy. " <br /><br />Then you wrote this: "I never intended to convey anyone thought Paul was "always infallible" - the point is that someone can be infallible under certain circumstances and still have Galatians 1:8 apply to him."<br /><br />Now your initial comment, which was this: "If you interpreting Gal 1:8 the way you are doing so in your post, you must reject the infallibility and inerrancy of St Paul, because you'd be saying even he could get the Gospel wrong."<br /><br />Doesn't make much sense.<br /><br />Would you like to clarify?Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45465297857248646562012-02-04T15:48:12.206-05:002012-02-04T15:48:12.206-05:00It seems that anything I write "annoys" ...<i>It seems that anything I write "annoys" you; it is painfully obvious that you have a certain disdain for me, but that's OK, I have very 'broad shoulders'...</i><br /><br />You do pop over here every so often, at times leaving little snipes (I refer to our last long-winded encounter). <br /><br /><i>As for your "understanding", my comment was/is to be 'understood' in a broad scope; the quote I used at the beginning was merely a platform, so to speak, for a much broader application; you actually seem to grasp this broader context, after your initial reflections. For the record, that broader context applies to me too!!!</i><br /><br />Contrarily, I would posit your recent comment actually echoes back to an earlier discussion we had in which you made a very similar comment directly toward me. If you did not intend this, I can't be faulted for making such a connection as the similarity is uncanny. Perhaps you don't remember the things you wrote previously. I certainly do, and can re-post them to show that similarity.<br /><br /><i>Not in exact words, but you have stated on numerous occasions to many who comment here that they have not 'done their homework' when it comes to Martin Luther, implying that you have. You have also spoken about the thousands of dollars you have spent collecting literature on Luther, and the hundreds of hours you have spent in research on Luther.</i><br /><br />That's a far cry from claiming to be an expert or an authority. What it is, is a claim that if someone wants to quibble over the details or challenge my findings, they better do so thoroughly by doing their own research and having the necessary tools (read= homework). Recently I got involved with a Roman blogger who simply wanted to challenge me using my own materials in which he hadn't even read the primary contexts in question. I bailed. I had no time to do the work for both of us, nor did I want to waste my time with someone who doesn't care enough to take complete contexts into question.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-11097843911822810842012-02-04T15:29:57.895-05:002012-02-04T15:29:57.895-05:00I'm confused as to why you're speaking of ...<i>I'm confused as to why you're speaking of people not caring what you or I say. Why write anything at all if you think your efforts are of no value? If your intention isn't about making an argument for Protestantism, then it seems you're giving off the wrong impression.</i><br /><br />I write and blog because I like to. I enjoy it for me, it has value for me. That may sound selfish, but it's purely Protestant: I write and blog with the hopes of doing it to my best ability as I try to do all things: to the glory of God. Whether it's driving down the road or going to the supermarket. This is the same sort of thing Luther argued when he would say a mother changing the diaper of a baby could be done to the glory of God.<br /><br />I also have been created by God with particular likes and dislikes, abilities and weaknesses. That I enjoy blogging or writing is simply yet another gift God gives me to enjoy. When I write or research, it's no different in theory than a person who sits down in front of piano and enjoys playing it (however well or poorly). Assuming the person enjoys playing the Piano, the person playing the piano does so because... they enjoy it. Now, if someone else reads or benefits from something I've written, that's fine. Just like if someone plays the piano and someone else enjoys hearing it being played. Of course I enjoy it when someone says they have benefited from something I've written, probably in the same way someone who does the job they love enjoys the occasional pat on the back for something their job requires. I say all these things because people sometimes think that what they do when they write blog articles is "ministry". Rather, they should just be honest and say they write blog entries because... they like to. If they seek to do all they do to the glory of God, well guess what? It will probably minister to someone.<br /><br />As to "making an argument for Protestantism" sometimes, yes, because that's what I am. Other times I simply just post the things that interest me. In this instance, that Maximus appealed to the authority of Scripture was in a sense an appeal to Protestant theology in that the words and deeds of Maximus define who he was, and that I don't have to put some sort of template on him to have him be who I want him to be, or invoke "development of doctrine" to put in him the pen of Romanism despite whatever areas in which he might be at odds with modern-day Romanism. I found the words of Maximus to be inspiring.<br /><br /><i>What comes off as a snipe against Rome, I and other Catholics feel a need to correct any erroneous comments. The same can be said for you, especially when people are abusing Luther's words in order to discredit Protestantism, and you feel a duty to correct such errors. </i><br /><br />In this instance, you guys filled in your own details and then attacked what you created. I'm super busy at the moment, so I can't chase each of you around and quibble over the details. Sometimes I can, this time I can't.<br /><br />As to the "duty" you think I think I have, this is similar to what I stated above. I don't think of researching Luther or pointing out a Roman-error-laden-Luther contexts as a duty, I think of it as an enjoyable hobby. If it were my duty, it would be a full-time job without pay, and I would quickly learn to despise it. That is, there's enough error regarding Luther and the Reformation that if it were actually my duty, I would be consumed by trying to keep up with it.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-42244382960815088782012-02-04T14:40:52.159-05:002012-02-04T14:40:52.159-05:00==David,
If I'm understanding you correctly, ...==David,<br /><br />If I'm understanding you correctly, your comment annoys me.==<br /><br />Me: It seems that anything I write "annoys" you; it is painfully obvious that you have a certain disdain for me, but that's OK, I have very 'broad shoulders'...<br /><br />As for your "understanding", my comment was/is to be 'understood' in a broad scope; the quote I used at the beginning was merely a platform, so to speak, for a much broader application; you actually seem to grasp this broader context, after your initial reflections. For the record, that broader context applies to me too!!!<br /><br />==I've never claimed to be any sort of expert on anything. If I have, show me where.==<br /><br />Me: Not in exact words, but you have stated on numerous occasions to many who comment here that they have not 'done their homework' when it comes to Martin Luther, implying that you have. You have also spoken about the thousands of dollars you have spent collecting literature on Luther, and the hundreds of hours you have spent in research on Luther. I personally appreciate your zeal and efforts when it comes to Luther, and have wanted to field some questions I have had concerning Luther to you for your opinion, but have refrained from doing because of your attitude towards me...oh well...<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80517859586861527392012-02-04T13:36:47.303-05:002012-02-04T13:36:47.303-05:00James,
I'm confused as to why you're spe...James, <br /><br />I'm confused as to why you're speaking of people not caring what you or I say. Why write anything at all if you think your efforts are of no value? If your intention isn't about making an argument for Protestantism, then it seems you're giving off the wrong impression.<br /><br />Sure there are millions of people who don't care what either of us say, but those are also generally the people who have no care for the truth and learning about the Faith. <br /><br />What comes off as a snipe against Rome, I and other Catholics feel a need to correct any erroneous comments. The same can be said for you, especially when people are abusing Luther's words in order to discredit Protestantism, and you feel a duty to correct such errors. <br /><br />All I'm saying in response to your original post is that (a) there is no evidence Maximus ever saw Rome caving in, and in fact always saw Rome as preserver of orthodoxy, and (b) the Galatians 1:8 says nothing one way or the other about infallibility since Paul includes the Apostles in that warning. Thus your conclusion that Maximus had the right idea about where ultimate authority rests is non-sequitor. By your logic, anyone can play the Gal1:8 card under any circumstances and be commended as orthodox.<br /><br /><br />TurretinFan, <br />I never intended to convey anyone thought Paul was "always infallible" - the point is that someone can be infallible under certain circumstances and still have Galatians 1:8 apply to him.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.com