tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post5252187774444086438..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: God’s Sovereignty in Election motivates Evangelism and MissionsJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41581680816209265022011-03-22T15:17:16.579-04:002011-03-22T15:17:16.579-04:00Thanks James,
That is exactly what I meant by sayi...Thanks James,<br />That is exactly what I meant by saying that Luther did not come up with the phrase "Irresistable Grace" - in fact the whole TULIP system was a response to the Arminian Remonstrance, which was after Luther and Calvin.<br /><br />I like "effectual Grace" better than "irresistable Grace" as a title; and "Particular Atonement" better than "Limited Atonement".<br /><br />For Brigitte,<br />All I was saying is that Luther's Bondage of the Will is consistent with Total Depravity, which is consistent with "effectual Grace". <br /><br />The other five points flow from the foundation of those first two. (from a human perspective) <br /><br />I also did not like "Limited Atonement" nor "irresistible Grace" when I first heard about them in seminary. I responded the same way you did for years; but God by His Spirit worked on me. Now, I am not afraid of hard passages like Romans 9 anymore.<br /><br />But the main point of my passage was to show how the doctrines of Grace do not destroy evangelism and missions, as many anti-Reformed doctrine think, but rather they motivate evangelism and missions.<br /><br />2 Peter 3:15 - when it says "consider the patience of our Lord to be salvation", he means to count it as true that the reason why Christ as not returned yet, is becasue He wants to save more people from all nations, who are elect, but they if they haven't heard yet, they cannot be saved. We don't know who they are; but we are called to preach the gospel and go and learn languges and witness and incarnate the gospel to them.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46151459708494433782011-03-21T22:22:09.141-04:002011-03-21T22:22:09.141-04:00As far as my studies have gone, the acronym "...As far as my studies have gone, the acronym "TULIP" is post-Reformation, so their was no defined category of "irresistible grace".<br /><br />I've mentioned many times that Luther was not a Calvinist in the "TULIP" sense. While there are some similarites, there are also great differences. In regard to any statements from Luther that God draws His people to Himself, there are such statements in his writings, but then there are other statements that strongly imply a unlimited, universal atonement.<br /><br />Part of the problem is Luther embraced paradox, while many in the Reformed tradition do not. So, we end up speaking past each other. <br /><br />I've gone into this before, I think I even did an hour radio broadcast on it a few years ago.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-71507415873240413432011-03-21T19:55:56.449-04:002011-03-21T19:55:56.449-04:00Once more: Luther did not teach "irresistibl...Once more: Luther did not teach "irresistible grace"; by no means at all. I am finding that I have to complain on both sides (RC and Reformed) about misrepresenting Luther's teaching and confession. (Please, everyone, as mentioned before, pick up a Book of Concord for making sure before you declare something Luther's official teaching.)Brigittehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259491144770243688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-51847262727328509942011-03-21T18:51:44.144-04:002011-03-21T18:51:44.144-04:00Ken, I have read the entire "Bondage of the W...Ken, I have read the entire "Bondage of the Will". What it takes to turn someone to God, is for that person to know that God has turned to him, has died for him. This is the POWER of the Gospel, the Word, which we could have never conceived of ourselves. (Rom. 1:16)<br /><br />The bondage of the will is to show that there is not one thing that we can produce to bring about our salvation, nor would we have ever conceived of such a plan, it is beyond our own figuring out. But the Gospel is true and announced to all and for all.Brigittehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259491144770243688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-89920315253564269042011-03-21T18:19:53.630-04:002011-03-21T18:19:53.630-04:00Romans 9:14
"What shall we say then? There i...Romans 9:14 <br />"What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!"Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45667039050075675242011-03-21T17:44:40.048-04:002011-03-21T17:44:40.048-04:00I've been thinking about this business about &...I've been thinking about this business about "limited atonement" practically non-stop since I read this last night.<br /><br /><i> Glad to know it has stimulated your thinking. I hope you look up all the verses and meditate on them and the argument.</i><br /><br />It makes me think that we do not have the same God.<br /><br /><i> That's not a good result of this post.</i><br /><br />My God is "good", not "sovereign".<br /><br /><i> Wrong. He is both good and sovereign.</i><br /><br /> His will is just. Keeping pointing to the "sovereignty" is like saying what Richard Dawkins says about the "God" whom he hates, a despicable, small-minded, capricious despot.<br /><br /><i> No way. "May it never Be!" - Paul - Romans 6:1-2; chapter 3, and chapter 9 - </i><br /><br />He is anything but good or sovereign. He is mean.<br /><br /><i> Huh? You don't think God's right to punish sinners in hell for eternity is just and right and His holy authority to do so? I think Luther would agree on me on that.</i><br /><br />My God, loves the entire world, and holds out, like a beggar himself, the reconciliation to all. "Be reconciled!" Like the Father who runs to meet the Prodigal, ready to forgive, again and again and all.<br /><br /><i> Yes, that is all true; but it doesn't negate anything I wrote.</i><br /><br />He humbled himself. This is the side of him we see. "Come to me, all!" He coaxes, he calls, he draws, he offers, he pronounces, he pleads, he dies so we can live.<br /><br /><i> That is all true too!</i><br /><br />He is my good God, my dear Father in Heaven, my gracious, beloved, loving Maker and Redeemer.<br /><br /><i> That is all true also! </i><br /><br />Luther always said to note that the word "God" or "Gott" in German comes from "good", which is a wonderful thing (instead of "deus" in Latin, which does not mean "good". "Good" would be "bonus".)<br /><br />So we have thing wonderful thing in English and in German. God is good.<br /><br />Even when my son dies in a car accident. God is good. He has redeemed him and me. <br /><br /><i> No argument with any of that either!</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41109454981602119942011-03-21T17:34:35.391-04:002011-03-21T17:34:35.391-04:00Brigitte wrote:
Please, do not attribute "irr...Brigitte wrote:<br />Please, do not attribute "irresistible grace" to Luther.<br /><br /><i> I don't mean he came up with the exact phrase, but his very best work, which Luther himself said, was "The Bondage of the Will"; and that total depravity and inability to choose good over evil - when understood, points to effectual grace needed to awaken the dead sinner out of the bondage of the will. <br /><br />It seems that Melanchthon later softened Luther's original theology.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-59049409985597660032011-03-21T13:36:16.740-04:002011-03-21T13:36:16.740-04:00Please, do not attribute "irresistible grace&...<i>Please</i>, do not attribute "irresistible grace" to Luther.<br /><br />I've been thinking about this business about "limited atonement" practically non-stop since I read this last night.<br /><br />It makes me think that we do not have the same God.<br /><br />My God is "good", not "sovereign". His will is just. Keeping pointing to the "sovereignty" is like saying what Richard Dawkins says about the "God" whom he hates, a despicable, small-minded, capricious despot.<br /><br />He is anything but good or sovereign. He is mean.<br /><br />My God, loves the entire world, and holds out, like a beggar himself, the reconciliation to all. "Be reconciled!" Like the Father who runs to meet the Prodigal, ready to forgive, again and again and all. <br /><br />He humbled himself. This is the side of him we see. "Come to me, all!" He coaxes, he calls, he draws, he offers, he pronounces, he pleads, he dies so we can live. <br /><br />He is my good God, my dear Father in Heaven, my gracious, beloved, loving Maker and Redeemer.<br /><br />Luther always said to note that the word "God" or "Gott" in German comes from "good", which is a wonderful thing (instead of "deus" in Latin, which does not mean "good". "Good" would be "bonus".)<br /><br />So we have thing wonderful thing in English and in German. God is good.<br /><br />Even when my son dies in a car accident. God is good. He has redeemed him and me.Brigittehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259491144770243688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-26198405443346198092011-03-21T01:51:41.289-04:002011-03-21T01:51:41.289-04:00σπεύδω (speudō)
... an ancient Greek line of swim...<i>σπεύδω (speudō)</i><br /><br />... an ancient Greek line of swimwear?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-27798282525454459752011-03-20T21:45:14.541-04:002011-03-20T21:45:14.541-04:00James,
Yeah - I didn't know about the widget t...James,<br />Yeah - I didn't know about the widget thing either, until after I published it; I just also wanted to get the NIV translation of "speudontos" (where we get our English word "speed" from) in the article.<br /><br />σπευδοντας<br /><br />from<br /><br />σπεύδω (speudō)Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45815388121522531832011-03-20T21:40:48.837-04:002011-03-20T21:40:48.837-04:00If I recall correctly, B.B. Warfield indentified I...If I recall correctly, B.B. Warfield indentified I.G. as the heart of Calvinism. <br /><br /><i> James - Indeed, whoever wrote that; it is true. Augustine and Luther (The Bondage of the Will) and Calvin also believed it.<br /><br />Piper's advice (in talking to the non-Reformed) is always to start with Total Depravity (inability to choose moral goodness over inherent desires and choices with selfish motives) and Effectual Grace together. The others of the 5 points flow from those 2, if the Christian is convinced of those 2 first, then election, and Particular Atonement and Perseverance are more easily accepted. <br /><br />John,<br />Thanks!<br /><br />Indeed, the atonement was a real atonement that actually saves people, not just potentially saves. Spurgeon's famous quote on that, on who really limits the power of the atonment, was very helpful to me, when I was wrestling with it.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-72456953747368561252011-03-20T18:39:25.192-04:002011-03-20T18:39:25.192-04:00man named Lars, who is on his way, and growing in ...<i> man named Lars, who is on his way, and growing in the doctrines of grace, it seems, but says he struggles with Irresistible Grace (or better, "effectual grace") the most out of the 5 points of Calvinism.</i><br /><br />If I recall correctly, B.B. Warfield indentified I.G. as the heart of Calvinism. I'd have to check though.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-74655387047232520712011-03-20T07:16:11.278-04:002011-03-20T07:16:11.278-04:00(2 Peter 3:11-12 NIV)
Ken, you posted this refer...<i> (2 Peter 3:11-12 NIV) </i><br /><br />Ken, you posted this reference, and the widget I installed actually auto shows the NIV text. I know you didn't do this for the sake of the widget, but it's a cool trick I'm going to remember!James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-91528076935584931352011-03-19T10:11:56.618-04:002011-03-19T10:11:56.618-04:00Thanks for posting this Ken. I imagine all of this...Thanks for posting this Ken. I imagine all of this talk about "election" and "the elect" will make some folks a bit nervous. <br /><br />I used to consider myself a "four-point" Calvinist (excluding "election") until I heard Dr. White's explanation of "the limited atonement".<br /><br />Basically, he said, barring universalism (which we do), the atonement of Christ is going to be limited in one way or another.<br /><br />Calvinists limit it to "the elect," but for the elect, the atonement is powerful to save, and unlimited in that direction.<br /><br />But for others, for the "God is a gentleman who gives us our free will" folks, the atonement is limited in that it doesn't actually accomplish anything; there's just the <i>hope</i> that some people will respond.<br /><br />God does not limit himself in that way, though. He does not subject his plan to the winds. As you noted, "The Lord does whatever He pleases." None of the elect may be gotten out of His hand. It may be uncomfortable to some that God does not "elect" everyone. We don't, and can't, understand all of His purposes. But a God who only hopes people are saved, is so weak as to not actually seem as if He is a <i>Sovereign</i> God at all.<br /><br />Meanwhile, as you say, <i>we must preach and teach and suffer and serve and endure and some of us should go and learn languages and be with people in an unreached people group that needs to hear the gospel in their own language</i><br /><br />You have taken to heart your own advice, in ways that some of us cannot even comprehend.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-86810927273611466412011-03-19T09:04:59.572-04:002011-03-19T09:04:59.572-04:00Pastor Piper also did a seminar on "The Pleas...Pastor Piper also did a seminar on "The Pleasures of God" here:<br /><br />http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/seminars/the-pleasures-of-god-part-1--2Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.com