tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post3859685673880754973..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: A Tribute to the Churches of the EastJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger99125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-33896485535420923992010-10-23T13:45:20.642-04:002010-10-23T13:45:20.642-04:00What is it with these double- or triple-posts! Cou...What is it with these double- or triple-posts! Could someone delete the two extra rounds of my J.B. Bury post?<br /><br />:)Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-65675027283839184592010-10-23T13:33:32.214-04:002010-10-23T13:33:32.214-04:00And here is a 19th-century British traveller's...And here is a 19th-century British traveller's description on the position of mountain-tribe Assyrians (Tiyari) on images:<br /><br />(It's to be noted that the "Nestorian" Tiyari highlanders were more traditional-minded than those Assyrians who dwelled in the Mesopotamian plains, "lowlanders" who had been subjected to intensive RC missionary activity and had formed their own Uniate "Chaldean" churches. They gradually adopted RC image-policies along with the union.)<br /><br />http://www.aina.org/books/nfn/nfn.htm#c14<br /><br />"The rites of the Romish Chaldeans differ little externally from those of their independent brethren. By both, Divine service is solemnized in the ancient Chaldean language; but the Roman missionaries have inserted into the missal, used by the -former, several lines favorable to the doctrine of transubstantiation,34 and have introduced the custom of paying adoration to the consecrated bread. In all other particulars, the service remains the same, and many of the Tiyari Nestorians who had been induced to attend the worship of the Romish Chaldeans, found scarcely any difference between it and their own. They, however, objected strongly to the pictures. and images which, by degrees, had crept into the churches of Mosul and the neighboring villages. <br />... <br /><br />The aversion of the Tiyari people to the use of pictures is very strong, and they found it upon a literal interpretation of the second Commandment. One of them was much scandalized at finding a small print of the queen hung up in my room at Mosul. It was in vain, I observed, that a private apartment was not a church, nor the portrait of an English sovereign an object of worship. My Nestorian friend insisted, with some plausibility, that the Commandment prohibited the making of a graven image, or the likeness of anything, as well as the adoration of it, and seemed by no means satisfied with my excuses."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73018626167163610262010-10-23T13:32:19.224-04:002010-10-23T13:32:19.224-04:00Here is how a noted secular classical historian J....Here is how a noted secular classical historian J.B. Bury saw the council of Ephesus:<br /><br />http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/11*.html<br /><br />"It is to be observed that in this controversy both parties agreed in condemning the theory of Apollinaris and in holding that there were two natures in Christ. The main difference between them concerned the formula by which the union of the two natures was to be expressed — Cyril maintaining a "natural p352 union"8 and Nestorius a less intimate "contact."9 The truth may be that the view of Nestorius was not so very different from that of Cyril as Cyril thought. It seems probable that the doctrine of two Persons, somehow joined together, which is commonly imputed to Nestorius, would have been repudiated by him. 10<br /><br />(footnote)<br /><br />10 See Bethune-Baker, op. cit. ch. VI. The main object of this book was to prove that Nestorius was orthodox and was not a "Nestorian." The dialogue of Nestorius, the Bazaar of Heraclides, or Πραγματεία Ἡρακλείδου, recently discovered in a Syriac version, supplies the important evidence that Nestorius survived till the eve of the Council of Chalcedon and agreed with the Dogmatic Epistle of Pope Leo. Cp. Loofs' Nestorius (pp21, 22), which gives a clear and interesting account of the tragedy of Nestorius. This theologian agrees with Bethune-Baker partially; he concludes that Nestorius can be considered orthodox according to the WESTERN interpretation of the definition of Chalcedon (p100).<br /><br />...<br /><br />The shameless proceedings of the satellites of Cyril and the rabble whom they are collected are graphically described by Nestorius, whose house was guarded by soldiers to protect him from violence. "They acted in everything as if it was a war they were conducting, and the followers of the Egyptian and of Memnon (the bishop of Ephesus), who were abetting them, went about in the city girt and armed with clubs, men with high necks, performing strange antics with the yells of barbarians, snorting fiercely with horrible and unwonted noises, raging with extravagant doings, carrying bells about the city, and lighting fires in many places and casting into them all kinds of writings. Everything they did was a cause of amazement and fear; they blocked up the streets so that every one was obliged to flee and hide while they acted as masters of the situation, lying about drunk and besotted and shouting obscenities."13 Such were the circumstances of the Third Ecumenical Council, which had gathered to pronounce on the true doctrine of the natures of Christ."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-49347428266710270292010-10-23T13:32:03.536-04:002010-10-23T13:32:03.536-04:00Here is how a noted secular classical historian J....Here is how a noted secular classical historian J.B. Bury saw the council of Ephesus:<br /><br />http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/11*.html<br /><br />"It is to be observed that in this controversy both parties agreed in condemning the theory of Apollinaris and in holding that there were two natures in Christ. The main difference between them concerned the formula by which the union of the two natures was to be expressed — Cyril maintaining a "natural p352 union"8 and Nestorius a less intimate "contact."9 The truth may be that the view of Nestorius was not so very different from that of Cyril as Cyril thought. It seems probable that the doctrine of two Persons, somehow joined together, which is commonly imputed to Nestorius, would have been repudiated by him. 10<br /><br />(footnote)<br /><br />10 See Bethune-Baker, op. cit. ch. VI. The main object of this book was to prove that Nestorius was orthodox and was not a "Nestorian." The dialogue of Nestorius, the Bazaar of Heraclides, or Πραγματεία Ἡρακλείδου, recently discovered in a Syriac version, supplies the important evidence that Nestorius survived till the eve of the Council of Chalcedon and agreed with the Dogmatic Epistle of Pope Leo. Cp. Loofs' Nestorius (pp21, 22), which gives a clear and interesting account of the tragedy of Nestorius. This theologian agrees with Bethune-Baker partially; he concludes that Nestorius can be considered orthodox according to the WESTERN interpretation of the definition of Chalcedon (p100).<br /><br />...<br /><br />The shameless proceedings of the satellites of Cyril and the rabble whom they are collected are graphically described by Nestorius, whose house was guarded by soldiers to protect him from violence. "They acted in everything as if it was a war they were conducting, and the followers of the Egyptian and of Memnon (the bishop of Ephesus), who were abetting them, went about in the city girt and armed with clubs, men with high necks, performing strange antics with the yells of barbarians, snorting fiercely with horrible and unwonted noises, raging with extravagant doings, carrying bells about the city, and lighting fires in many places and casting into them all kinds of writings. Everything they did was a cause of amazement and fear; they blocked up the streets so that every one was obliged to flee and hide while they acted as masters of the situation, lying about drunk and besotted and shouting obscenities."13 Such were the circumstances of the Third Ecumenical Council, which had gathered to pronounce on the true doctrine of the natures of Christ."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-33433959289151375342010-10-22T17:19:11.569-04:002010-10-22T17:19:11.569-04:00Hi Odo, welcome to Beggars All. Thanks for your co...Hi Odo, welcome to Beggars All. Thanks for your comments.<br /><br /><i>But where is map 1.1 from page 12?</i><br /><br />Basically (and unfortunately for the moment), the two sources I might direct you to, Google Books and Amazon's "Search inside this book" feature don't show this page. <br /><br />I'll make a note to get it scanned and try and post it here if I get a chance.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-42185006904868148592010-10-22T16:53:16.877-04:002010-10-22T16:53:16.877-04:00Some peoples comments on here remind me of a this ...<i>Some</i> peoples comments on here remind me of a this verse from Galatians 5:<br /><br />If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.ottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11177671679890053425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-21926428197476912492010-10-22T16:50:44.115-04:002010-10-22T16:50:44.115-04:00what a great post, comments, and book referneces! ...what a great post, comments, and book referneces! But where is map 1.1 from page 12?ottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11177671679890053425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-57902232714255579662010-10-22T05:12:30.497-04:002010-10-22T05:12:30.497-04:00Lvka -- I'm not going to delete your post here...Lvka -- I'm not going to delete your post here because you have said something coherent.<br /><br />Like many of us, I grew up in the 1960's and 70's, during the Cold War in the US, and I had the opportunity to read some of the literature that was coming out in those days.<br /><br />Without going into too much detail about what I read (because the memory is fuzzy), I think it's fair to say that <i>everyone</i> suffered under communism: Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox alike. <br /><br />But that does not negate the fact that leaders of the Orthodox churches brought some of this pain and persecution on themselves (and everyone else) by selling out to and even working with the communist government.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-68822023361999479352010-10-22T03:52:06.649-04:002010-10-22T03:52:06.649-04:00Romania, for instance, got over communism in 50 ye...Romania, for instance, got over communism in 50 years, and atheism in our country is statistically non-existent (same for Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Georgia, and Belarus); the West, on the other hand, still struggles with it, losing more and more ground to agnosticism...<br /><br />No-one denies the persecution of Protestants (and Catholics) under communism, but to say that the Orthodox didn't also suffer enormously is a very great distortion of truth..The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41065261334945676462010-10-21T21:53:51.015-04:002010-10-21T21:53:51.015-04:00Besides the Moscow Patriarchate, other mainstream ...Besides the Moscow Patriarchate, other mainstream EO churches also did not offer any more effective resistance to Communism than, say, Russian Baptists did (who were highly over-represented in the Gulag):<br /><br />http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/321/1945-moscow-patriarchate-s-/<br /><br />"Other consequences of Stalin’s “redemption” included the enslavement of the Romanian, Bulgarian and Serbian Orthodox Churches to the KGB and its sister-organizations, as a result of which hundreds of bishops and clergy were killed while the survivors became obedient puppets of the collective Antichrist."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-29733952375302962682010-10-21T21:25:12.038-04:002010-10-21T21:25:12.038-04:00And regarding this quip of Lvka:
"God judged...And regarding this quip of Lvka:<br /><br />"God judged your people and your churches by allowing the rise of atheism, agnosticism, skepticism, and liberalism."<br /><br />In terms of general culture war, the forces of modernism made mincemeat of EO churches just about as soon as they came to contact with them. From the days of Peter the Great onwards, the Russian high society was generally an obedient follower of progressive Western fashions. <br /><br />Then in the early part of the 20th century, the most militant sort of modernists took over in the heart of Eastern Orthodoxy, with relative ease. Mainstream EO church could not oppose this onslaught in any significant manner:<br /><br />"It is well-known that for over eighty years now the Moscow Patriarchate has assiduously defended and advanced the cause of world communism, making excuses for the Soviet government even in its most evil acts – and such acts have been without precedent in world history…"<br /><br />http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/321/1945-moscow-patriarchate-s-/<br /> <br /><br />So that while the Satanic lion of modernism has severely mauled Protestant civilization, let's not pretend that EO civilization has performed any better. <br /><br />(Not even speaking of the RCC, which has sold out to modernism after Vatican II.)Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-6227013147945200312010-10-21T17:13:55.337-04:002010-10-21T17:13:55.337-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1868409137410755422010-10-21T17:03:08.242-04:002010-10-21T17:03:08.242-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-76957724620597080832010-10-21T16:35:00.953-04:002010-10-21T16:35:00.953-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-81579632039138278302010-10-21T16:23:48.676-04:002010-10-21T16:23:48.676-04:00Viisaus:
Lvka just keeps moving goalposts without...Viisaus:<br /><br /><i>Lvka just keeps moving goalposts without attempting to really defend his own position (which he simply takes for granted) with concrete evidence. I'm growing tired of answering his lazy inquiries.<br /><br />I am also sick of his dishonestly disingenuous insistence that all pictures, even merely decorative ones, are "icons."</i><br /><br />Thank you for your contributions here. We greatly value that you're taking part here.<br /><br />And on the other hand, we've had lots of complaints about Lvka. From now on, I'll be deleting his posts.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85668497028526554382010-10-21T16:17:20.514-04:002010-10-21T16:17:20.514-04:00"Furthermore: what is the opinion of those &q..."Furthermore: what is the opinion of those "iconoclastic" Indian Christians on the veneration of Saints and relics?"<br /><br />I'll say this: IF the reform against icons had succeeded in the Byzantine empire, then the reformers might have next taken aim against superstitions concerning relics and saint-worship (as emperor Constantine was rumored to already have done). <br /><br />Enlightened individuals like bishop Claudius of Turin were ready to oppose those phenomena as well even during those dark centuries:<br /><br />http://urban.hunter.cuny.edu/~thead/claudius.htm<br /><br />After all, the 16th century Reformation began with opposition only towards REALLY brazen corruptions like the indulgences, but as it grew larger it began to oppose all anti-Biblical "traditional" innovations altogether.Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-55279614433887127282010-10-21T16:08:02.065-04:002010-10-21T16:08:02.065-04:00Not only Indians, but those "Nestorian" ...Not only Indians, but those "Nestorian" Assyrians who lived in the mountains of Kurdistan had perhaps even more strident anti-icon position than theirs. Many 19th century Western travellers testify on this.<br /><br />But anyways, Lvka just keeps moving goalposts without attempting to really defend his own position (which he simply takes for granted) with concrete evidence. I'm growing tired of answering his lazy inquiries.<br /><br />I am also sick of his dishonestly disingenuous insistence that all pictures, even merely decorative ones, are "icons."<br /><br /><br />But here's yet a bit more, from Gibbon:<br /><br />"In their Syriac liturgy the names of Theodore and Nestorius were piously commemorated: they united their adoration of the two persons of Christ; the title of Mother of God was offensive to their ear, and they measured with scrupulous avarice the honors of the Virgin Mary, whom the superstition of the Latins had almost exalted to the rank of a goddess. When her image was first presented to the disciples of St. Thomas, they indignantly exclaimed, "We are Christians, not idolaters!" and their simple devotion was content with the veneration of the cross."<br /><br />http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume2/chap47.htm#India<br /><br />Moreover, "Libri Carolini" is a decisive proof that during the iconoclastic era, the cult of images was not yet approved in Western European countries, outside of Italy.Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-26117344853222433112010-10-21T15:57:08.231-04:002010-10-21T15:57:08.231-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-6742849605427127992010-10-21T15:50:40.360-04:002010-10-21T15:50:40.360-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-34043423458305912892010-10-21T15:49:18.502-04:002010-10-21T15:49:18.502-04:00"This being said, I'm curious how V. can ..."This being said, I'm curious how V. can explain the fact that the Eastern Churches you keep mentioning have the same piety towards icons, saints, and relics as we do, notwithstanding the fact that they broke off from us centuries before Second Niceea."<br /><br />They don't. Nestorian Assyrians have been famous for their detestation of images, and Monophysite Armenians have also been quite reluctant to adopt the systematic the cult of icons practiced by Greeks. Only in modern times they have in "ecumenical" spirit sometimes began to imitate Greek-Orthodox ways in this regard.<br /><br />http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/1998/027Mystery.html<br /><br />"The church: Cathedral of the Assyrian Church of the East, Trichor, South India.<br /><br />Denomination: The Assyrian Church of the East is a 'Nestorian' Church, which split with the Orthodox Church in AD431.<br /><br />The building: Built in 1814, the church has an oriental look. The interior is quite plain, with no icons or images (the Church believes that images break the second commandment), but with a host of globe lamps and a great chandlier hanging from the ceiling."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-22001612411841269732010-10-21T15:41:20.081-04:002010-10-21T15:41:20.081-04:00"I'm sure they have slandered his birth i..."I'm sure they have slandered his birth in the same way they have slandered Arius' earthly departure." <br /><br />FYI, Christians are not permitted to bear false testimony, to "bring railing accusation" (Jude 1:9) even against the worst of men.<br /><br />Nay, Christians would not be allowed to tell slanderous lies or untrue fibs about Satan himself (that would be really a case of "becoming the thing you hate")<br />, even for the sake of some "higher purpose". <br /><br />That you clearly approve such behavior - telling tall tales about "enemies of the faith" - shows the low Pharisaical standards of EO morality.Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-57959094500403320092010-10-21T15:29:19.113-04:002010-10-21T15:29:19.113-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-35996731783360635432010-10-21T15:26:56.672-04:002010-10-21T15:26:56.672-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-76661207991032539012010-10-21T15:20:07.462-04:002010-10-21T15:20:07.462-04:00John Mendham describes how RC/EO historians have s...John Mendham describes how RC/EO historians have slandered the memory of iconoclast emperor Constantine V "Copronymus" - "dung-named" being the childish nickname that pro-icon writers gave to him:<br /><br />http://www.archive.org/details/seventhgeneralc00mendgoog<br /><br />pp. xli-xlii<br /><br />"Baronius concludes his remarks thus with allusion to Protestants: — "In such a leader let our innovators glory: him let them exalt as they do with praises; but let these blasphemers of the Saints hear the buzz of the beetle involved in his own dung: let them roll about the same stercoraceous pellets as did he — namely, while they equally augment the same filthy heresies — since, beyond all question, they also in hell shall suffer the same punishment of which he, when about to die, experienced so awful a foretaste: for, while he thus expressed his expectation of the sentence of eternal condemnation against himself, he signified no less than that all his followers would suffer the same." <br /><br />Thus, by this writer, Constantine was sentenced to eternal wrath, because he kept the second commandment and compelled others to do the same, and all we who observe that command are in like manner to be condemned! — Let us compare this account with a like history of the death of Calvin from the pen of the Jesuit De Ballinghem, for thus he writes: —<br /><br />"Of which blasphemies against Christ, and against the Virgin, and of his other heresies, a most miserable death was his reward: for he died being eaten of worms, agonized with a foul internal ulcer! Moreover, in invocating demons, in devoting himself to the furies, in cursing the day and the hour in which he first gave himself to literature and writing, he breathed out his miserable soul." <br /><br />So writes this Jesuit. Now for the fact: — "The remainder of his days (says Beza) Calvin passed in almost perpetual prayer. He departed without even a sigh, in the full possession of his powere to the last." <br /><br />If such misrepresentations were unblushingly put forth in an age when the art of printing, open to all, could easily manifest their falsehood, how much more might we expect this to be the case when books were scarce — when but few copies of a work could be published — when every statement which pleased not a dominant party could be easily destroyed. Had Beza published his account in the eighth century it would soon have perished, and the slanders of the Jesuit had come forth without contradiction. <br /><br />As, therefore, we know not what the friends of Constantine might have had to say concerning his last hours, we are at liberty to suspend our belief in the various slanderous tales set forth by his enemies."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10365422543214792282010-10-21T15:12:26.419-04:002010-10-21T15:12:26.419-04:00Lvka, I deleted your posts. I've left some of ...Lvka, I deleted your posts. I've left some of your more recent because Ken and Viisaus are actually trying to interact with you. You, on the other hand, are not interacting, but acting like a jerk. That is uncalled for.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.com