tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post2243722314118148444..comments2024-03-13T11:10:01.605-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: And now, some slightly blasphemous prayersJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-4755318878465033552013-02-28T10:51:23.293-05:002013-02-28T10:51:23.293-05:00Despite our differences, real headway has been mad...<i>Despite our differences, real headway has been made. All one needs to do now is show me that the Scriptures... </i><br /><br />1. Just one example among the <a href="http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/BIBLE-PRAYERS.html" rel="nofollow">multitudinous prayers </a> in Scripture of anyone praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, unless they were pagans. <br /><br />"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Mama, Mother." (cf. Galatians 4:6) <br /><br />2. Any instruction on prayer to Heaven that addresses anyone but the Lord, such as "Our Mother who art in Heaven...," (cf. Mt. 6:9) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, (cf. Eph. 3:14)<br /><br />3. Any insufficiency in Christ as mediator btwn man and God, such as regards access, compassion, power etc., that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit, so that believers are told in the context of heavenly intercession, <br /><br />"For in that She himself hath suffered being tempted, She is able to succour them that are tempted. (cf. Heb. 2:18) <br /><br />"Seeing then that we have a great mother that is passed into the heavens, Mary, the Mother of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not a Queen which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. " (Hebrews 4:14-16) <br /><br />"Wherefore She is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Her, seeing She ever liveth to make intercession for them. " (cf. Hebrews 7:25) <br /><br />4. Anywhere that access into the holy of holies meant meeting with a saint secretary. <br /><br />"For through Her we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. " (cf. Ephesians 2:18) <br /><br />"And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, through Mary thy mother " (cf. Exodus 25:22) <br /><br />5. Show where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them.<br /><br />6. Show where the departed are given the Divine attributes that enable them to hear and process an infinite amount of prayer. <br /><br />7. Show where anyone else is called "Queen of heaven" other than Jer 44:17.<br /><br />8. Since none of the above can be provided, and prayer to the departed must be extrapolated out of personally asking others to pray for you on earth, though this is not to be done telepathically, then why not ask the departed for salvation? Or to take up offerings, etc.?<br /><br />And show where any personal communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, either by men being caught up to heaven or by angels coming to earth. (Jdg. 13; Mk. 9:2-9; Rev. 4:1ff;)<br /><br />9. Show where another basic spiritual practice has zero positive examples, and the only example of praying to someone else in Heaven is pagan. <br /><br />10. As there is no real Scriptural support for the tradition of praying to the departed (and is contrary to what is shown as re prayer to heaven) thus arguing from silence (the Bible does not actually forbid it) is employed, then show why consensual cannibalism (we agree to have whoever dies first for dinner) is wrong as a practice. <br /><br /><a href="http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/ptds.html" rel="nofollow">More </a>.PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-24219147806030487722013-02-14T16:55:41.582-05:002013-02-14T16:55:41.582-05:00Hello sean, I appreciate your remarks. I do wish ...Hello sean, I appreciate your remarks. I do wish you would have provided me with examples illustrating what practices that the pastor was disapproving and a ball park figure of the year. That said, given the priest's recognition of undue devotion and his disapproval of same, I hope that we can agree that the priestly admonition you referenced shows that official Church teaching does distinguish between proper devotion to saints and improper devotion. <br /><br />If one's personal devotional practices, regardless of whether one is Protestant or Catholic, fail to lead one deeper into relationship with Christ, then one should examine whether they understand their utility and purpose or whether such practices are even appropriate for them. Prayer only works when one has the proper disposition towards it. After all, we pray only after God disposes us to do through grace. Our praying is our response to that grace working within us. Since the Catholic experience of prayer is built on community, I am aware through devotion to saints and Mary that I am always praying in community. Even when I am alone, there are two or three gathered in His name by virtue of their intercessory prayer. <br /><br />I shall count my blessings that my spiritual life has been enriched by my devotions to Mary and the saints and has brought me much closer with Christ. I am sorry that your experiences in your prayer life to date have been different. <br /><br />Hi TUAD, I am glad that I did offer you something of value in our discussions. You may be interested to learn that Collyridianists were condemned for offering conducting a Mass-like sacrifice to her. The antidicomarianites, who were also regarded as heretics, refused to give any devotion to her whatsoever. <br /><br />I also appreciate you putting my comments in comparison with sean's which I think helps prove my point. To recap, Catholics, like Protestants believe that worship and adoration is reserved to God alone. <br /><br />We do not agree that all forms of prayer constitutes an act of worship.<br /><br />We all agree that intercessory prayer can be efficacious.<br /><br />We all agree that it is entirely proper to ask others to pray for us and that such intercessory prayer may be efficacious.<br /><br />Based on Rhology's remarks, I think it is safe to say that we also can agree that saints and Mary do engage in intercessory prayer for us in heaven.<br /><br />Where we disagree is whether one can ask a person who is in heaven to pray for us. <br /><br />Despite our differences, real headway has been made. All one needs to do now is show me that the Scriptures or the witness of the early Church demonstrate that ALL prayer is to be considered an act of worhip worship and that when a saint dies, we can no longer ask that one to engage in intercessory prayer.<br /><br />God bless!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-19309801967964967042013-02-14T12:12:21.884-05:002013-02-14T12:12:21.884-05:00Paul Hoffer: "I hope my answer helps you in ...<b>Paul Hoffer</b>: <i>"I hope my answer helps you in understanding Catholic teaching, but if you still have questions about the priest's conduct that you mentioned, <b>would you be so kind to provide a link so I can attempt to verify the facts of the situation which you referenced</b> so I can offer a better answer? <b>I would be obliged to you as would be the folks following this thread</b>.</i>"<br /><br />In obliging you I'm obliged to Sean for coming over to this thread to provide further verification of what he witnessed. Thank you Sean.<br /><br />To recap:<br /><br /><b>Paul Hoffer</b>: "Prayer is not in and of itself an act of worship unless it is connection with that living sacrifice. If through my actions and my words, I intend to offer a sacrifice to Mary or a saint, I am guilty of idolatry"<br /><br /><b>Sean</b> being quoted: "I remember sitting in Mass, I was about 12, and hearing a priest scold the parishioners for praying so often to Mary, that they never prayed to Jesus and reminding them that Jesus is their savior. Now indubitably, either that priest or those parishioners were poor or ignorant catholics or both."<br /><br /><b>Paul Hoffer</b>: "But if I had to guess the context of the good father's excoriation, I would say that the priest noted that the parishioners were engaing in Marian prayers during Mass which is not appropriate because as I pointed out, the Mass, being a sacrifice, is worship. Those folks were probably not participating in the liturgy of the Mass like they should and instead were engaged in their private devotional prayers."<br /><br /><b>Sean</b>: "I can tell you the admonishment wasn't in regard to pew practice during mass, but was a confusion and obscuring of Jesus he was witnessing in the piety of RC's in his parish. I understand the attempt at distinction Rome desires to make in these regards, my response at Old Life was that in spite of Rome's efforts, you often have an obscuring of Jesus in favor of mediation of the saints. As a former RC, I don't think there is anything particularly remarkable about this observation. It happens often and even the more attentive clergy know it's a problem."<br /><br />-----<br /><br />In closing I do appreciate learning this history lesson from Paul Hoffer:<br /><br /><b>"I am also aware that the early Church strongly anathematized the heresy of Collyridianism, which involved the worship of Mary"</b><br /><br /> Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78146170809195878172013-02-14T11:10:34.094-05:002013-02-14T11:10:34.094-05:00Paul, Now that I've read a little more, I gue...Paul, Now that I've read a little more, I guess it's not your blog but you're commenting on an article at this blog.seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267184779596744053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39569430765471952402013-02-14T11:06:16.911-05:002013-02-14T11:06:16.911-05:00Paul,
TUAD informed me of your blog and referenc...Paul, <br /><br />TUAD informed me of your blog and reference to the remark the priest made during service. I haven't read the article you guys are discussing or tracked along with the comments here. I can tell you the admonishment wasn't in regard to pew practice during mass, but was a confusion and obscuring of Jesus he was witnessing in the piety of RC's in his parish. I understand the attempt at distinction Rome desires to make in these regards, my response at Old Life was that in spite of Rome's efforts, you often have an obscuring of Jesus in favor of mediation of the saints. As a former RC, I don't think there is anything particularly remarkable about this observation. It happens often and even the more attentive clergy know it's a problem.seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267184779596744053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44916968158898796542013-02-12T15:17:07.653-05:002013-02-12T15:17:07.653-05:00Hi Mr. Hoffer,
The post is Called to Call the Mot...Hi Mr. Hoffer,<br /><br />The post is <b><a href="http://oldlife.org/2013/02/called-to-call-the-mother-of-god/" rel="nofollow">Called to Call the Mother of God</a></b>.<br /><br />You may interact with "Sean" on that thread or with him on his blog that he partially contributes to as one of the authors:<br /><br />http://confessionalouthouse.wordpress.com<br />Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46602324908703772202013-02-12T14:56:29.822-05:002013-02-12T14:56:29.822-05:00Hello TUAD, I found the blog you took that from &q...Hello TUAD, I found the blog you took that from "Old Life" Reformed Faith and Practice and saw that "sean" offered no other facts nor provided a way of contacting him to get the background facts. The comment was offered as polemic to Mr. Cross comments on Marian prayer. Until more facts are provided, I stand on my answer.<br /><br />Blessings!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36275110317460188722013-02-12T14:42:01.624-05:002013-02-12T14:42:01.624-05:00Hi Mr. TUAD, your wrote: Hmmmmmm. I read the foll...Hi Mr. TUAD, your wrote: Hmmmmmm. I read the following comment just this morning on another blog thread...<br /><br />Me: I did not see a link to that other website, so I can only guess on the contextof the remarks. But if I had to guess the context of the good father's excoriation, I would say that the priest noted that the parishioners were engaing in Marian prayers during Mass which is not appropriate because as I pointed out, the Mass, being a sacrifice, is worship. Those folks were probably not participating in the liturgy of the Mass like they should and instead were engaged in their private devotional prayers. Private devotions should not be said during Mass when people are supposed to be participating in the liturgy because that does send a mixed message and would tend to cause confusion for Christians who are not Catholic. The Mass is not a spectator sport but calls for the active participation of the entire congregation.<br /><br />That said, in my 53 years as a Catholic, I have not witnessed Catholics straying from dulia or hyperdulia to latria in regards to saints or Mary, but I imagine that somewhere someone has done so otherwise we would not have provisions in magisterial documents cautioning against such practices. I am also aware that the early Church strongly anathematized the heresy of Collyridianism, which involved the worship of Mary, as well as the heresy of Antidicomarianitism, which refused to accord the honor which Christians are to accord Mary. If some Catholics stray into the former heresy on occasion, one could point back and show how many Protestants engage in the latter. <br /><br />I hope my answer helps you in understanding Catholic teaching, but if you still have questions about the priest's conduct that you mentioned, would you be so kind to provide a link so I can attempt to verify the facts of the situation which you referenced so I can offer a better answer? I would be obliged to you as would be the folks following this thread.<br /><br />Blessings and much regards!<br /><br /> Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-77150583497625362962013-02-12T13:24:00.401-05:002013-02-12T13:24:00.401-05:00Paul Hoffer: "Prayer is not in and of itself...<b>Paul Hoffer</b>: <i>"Prayer is not in and of itself an act of worship unless it is connection with that living sacrifice. If through my actions and my words, I intend to offer a sacrifice to Mary or a saint, I am guilty of idolatry"</i><br /><br />Hmmmmmm. I read the following comment just this morning on another blog thread:<br /><br />"I remember sitting in Mass, I was about 12, and <b>hearing a priest scold the parishioners for praying so often to Mary, that they never prayed to Jesus and reminding them that Jesus is their savior.</b> Now indubitably, either that priest or those parishioners were poor or ignorant catholics or both. Good thing you came along. But when many cradles [cradle catholics] and religious don’t recognize your piety, do you really believe the problem lies with them and not you?"Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75847925084311512692013-02-12T01:18:56.432-05:002013-02-12T01:18:56.432-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16378824705047547032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-61297739727674153872013-02-10T15:42:26.517-05:002013-02-10T15:42:26.517-05:00Paul Hoffer said...
Mr. TUAD, You left out the po...Paul Hoffer said... <br />Mr. TUAD, You left out the point I made in my comment 2/9 at 8:43 pm that Catholic worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass and in the Liturgy of the Hours. Prayer is not in and of itself an act of worship unless it is connection with that living sacrifice. If through my actions and my words, I intend to offer a sacrifice to Mary or a saint, I am guilty of idolatry; if it is intercessory prayer asking Mary or a saint to pray to God for me, it is not. That is pretty simple. <br /><br />I am open to correction if you would care to show me where my understanding differs in anyway with 2000 years of Catholic teaching. However, the Bible is sufficient for my purposes here. At Rom. 12:1-2, St. Paul makes it clear what constitutes worship. Psalm 51:18-19 shows that it is intent rather than words or actions that determines what constitutes worship: "For you do not desire sacrifice or I would give it; a burnt offering you would not accept. My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit; a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn." See also, 1 Chron. 29:20-21 which shows that true worship constitutes adoration and sacrfice.<br /><br />Now you brought up a good point about addressing the theology in the prayers themselves that Rhology listed. I truly wish that was the focus of his article rather than mocking the rosary and then mocking the prayers listed without setting forth any thing that resembles an actual argument that would allow interaction and dialogue. I have addressed the general objection that prayer to Mary is not worship. One can accept it or not. I have addressed Mr. Swan's specific objection to a consecratory prayer he linked to. One can accept it or not. Perhaps you can state your objection to a particular phrase or word in the prayers above that caused you to go 'Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi' so I can do more than guess as to what about them that gives you pause.<br /><br />God bless!<br />Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-6363117491464381732013-02-10T15:39:00.194-05:002013-02-10T15:39:00.194-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-64726440274477922812013-02-10T15:21:19.695-05:002013-02-10T15:21:19.695-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-91775998210986049372013-02-10T13:46:54.750-05:002013-02-10T13:46:54.750-05:00Rhology and Mariology.<a href="http://mystificator.blogspot.com/2008/09/rhology-and-mariology.html" rel="nofollow">Rhology and Mariology</a>.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-21243301639345202222013-02-10T10:42:03.939-05:002013-02-10T10:42:03.939-05:00Yeeeeesh. (Head shaking, face grimacing).
I don&...Yeeeeesh. (Head shaking, face grimacing).<br /><br />I don't remember ever weighing in a Mariolatry discussion. They always seem to go like this to me:<br /><br /><b>Biblical Christian</b>: "These Marian prayers are prayers of worship to Mary! Utterly horrible!"<br /><br /><b>Catholic</b>: "We don't worship Mary, you silly! We venerate Mary. There's a difference."<br /><br />So I'm reading Rho's post and I take the time to actually read the Marian prayers that Rho posted. OH MY GOODNESS! Oh my goodness. Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi. They totally buttress the Biblical Christian's claim of Mariolatry. <br /><br />(These prayers are so wrong that I get to the point of feeling sorry for Mary, mother of Jesus.) <br /><br />So I'm reading through the comment thread, and then I finally read what I expected to read from Paul Hoffer:<br /><br />"<b><i>When I pray to Mary or any saint, I do not worship them. I honor them, I venerate them</i></b>, I seek to imitate their example, but I do not worship them. As an attorney, I make a “prayer” to the Court every time I file a pleading in court, but in doing so, I do not worship or offer adoration to the judge. Prayer is a fancy word for petition, but the intent behind the words determine whether it is a request for relief or an act of worship. Worship is not merely an action; it is a profound acknowledgment of the supremacy of God. Prayer to Mary or a saint lacks that acknowledgment. I do not attribute to them any divinity whatsoever."<br /><br />Mr. Hoffer does attempt to make a case for the difference between worship and veneration. And it's the same one that I have frequently read before: <br /><br /><b>"the intent behind the words determine whether it is a request for relief or an act of worship."</b><br /><br />Does this claim save the Catholic argument that their prayers to Mary are not worship prayers to Mary? But that they are instead prayers of veneration?<br /><br />To me, Catholic arguments disclaiming Mariolatry look like "distinction without a difference", but Hoffer argues that "intent" is the difference-maker.<br /><br />In such cases, I leave it up to God. <br /><br />Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-49166691959439860442013-02-10T02:03:19.845-05:002013-02-10T02:03:19.845-05:00Mr. Rooney asked: Do you think that icons of mode...Mr. Rooney asked: Do you think that icons of modern saints are actually more "accurate" than icons of Christ/Apostles/Mary/God?<br /><br />Me: As I understand iconography as well as Western pictures and statues, the physical depiction of the subject is idealized to reflect theology. The pictures reflect the artist’s inspiration, not necessarily what the person actually looked like. If physical accuracy is necessary, then most of the pictures of Jesus in bibles would have to be torn out because Jesus probably did not look like a Northern European male but more like a Mediterranean Jew. (BTW, at my parish, we have pictures of St. Augustine, both as a white man and as a Northern African.) I have seen Mary statues that show her fair-skinned young girl with blond hair, dressed up like a nun, like a Chinese girl wearing Han dynasty clothing with bound feet, and of course, Our Lady of Guadalupe, who appears to be a young Aztec maiden in traditional garb. <br /> <br />Mr. Rooney: I think that you were involved in that GreenBaggins discussion recently. We all have degrees of doubt/uncertainty on different levels.<br /><br />Me: Nope, that wasn’t me. Sounds like an interesting discussion though.<br /><br />Mr. Rooney: I think that this entails that RCs when they use mental imagery of the Godhead, Mary etc, need to be quite certain that their mental imageries are accurate.<br /><br />Me: I am not quite sure I agree with you there. I would love to see anyone accurately depict the perichoresis or inner life of the Holy Trinity. Our imagery should reflect our best spiritual and theological values. <br /><br /><br />Now to answer your questions:<br /><br />1) How do Orthodox view the rosary? They do say it (Three set of mysteries, not four and with the Jesus prayer stuck in for good measure) and might even claim (probably correctly) that the rosary originated in the Eastern Church and was copied by the West.<br /><br />2) Do you think that plastic rosaries are ok or do you think that some CAF people are right in being dismayed that so many rosaries are no longer made of gems? Do you use plastic rosary? It is what is in our hearts, in our minds, and on our lips that matter when we pray. Whether a rosary is plastic, glass, gems, or wooden is not really important to me. My favorite one is simply knotted string and plain wood beads with a simple cross. I own several, including one that glows in the dark as well as one that could be worn as a ring and one that is big enough to be a belt.<br /><br />3. Do you think that the vast majority of RCs abuse the rosary? I hope they don’t beat their rosaries or verbally assault them. That said I own a kitten that likes to steal shiny things and at least two rosaries I own were last seen being carried up the stairs to parts unknown by her. Like any prayer, people can pray a rosary with wrong intentions rather than ask that God work His will in our lives. <br /><br />4. Paintings of Mary have depicted her holding a rosary. Does she pray it now? Do the apostles or saints pray it in Heaven? Nope, nope. But they do participate in the Mass if Revelation is an accurate picture of Heaven.<br /><br /><br />5. Is it a sin for non-Catholics, like David Beckham etc to wear the rosary? No, unless it is their intent to desecrate it. That said, he would get better use out of it if he prayed it as opposed to just wearing it.<br /><br />Thank you for allowing me to share my faith and thoughts with you! I enjoyed interacting with you!!<br /><br />God bless!<br />Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-38608050770460310832013-02-10T02:02:41.471-05:002013-02-10T02:02:41.471-05:00You asked: BTW, do you use the Traditional set of...You asked: BTW, do you use the Traditional set of mysteries or the modern set?<br /><br />Me: I do not have any problem saying the Luminous mysteries. But, since the Rosary is a private devotion, we are not restricted to contemplating only Joyful, Sorrowful, Luminous, or Glorious mysteries. I also sometimes say a rosary dedicated to priests, bishops and deacons, First Mystery: Jesus the Eternal High Priest, Second Mystery: The Paschal Mystery and the Priesthood of Jesus, Third Mystery: The Priesthood of Jesus in the Church, Fourth Mystery: Jesus - Priest and Shepherd, Fifth Mystery: Jesus Christ - Priest and Sacrament; a scriptural rosary where each bead has a bible verse associated with it; and even the Lutheran version of the Rosary in the format that has uses some pre-Trent versions of the prayers with some of my Protestant relatives. <br /> <br />tbcPaul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-60773834607200871412013-02-10T02:00:19.886-05:002013-02-10T02:00:19.886-05:00Hello Mr. Rooney:
Yoiu asked: So nothing infal...Hello Mr. Rooney: <br /><br />Yoiu asked: So nothing infallible was declared about it? This was not one of those Traditions?<br /><br />Me: I have a bit of trouble answering your question because there are many different kinds of rosary prayers. I will limit our discussion to the most common version of it. No, Catholics are not required to say rosaries, any version of that prayer. It is a private devotion. <br /><br />Now, there is a fair bit of theology behind the prayers used in the Rosary, the sign of the Cross, praying to saints, the Creed, the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and the Doxology, the Scriptures referencing the events behind the mysteries and the dogma of the Assumption that is part of the magisterial and infallible teachings of the Church. And structured prayer is part of the Church’s Deposit of Faith; it is just that using a rosary to pray is not part of the Tradition <br /><br />You asked: Well some Traditionalists say that we should use mental imagery in it. So looks like the mental imagery thing is optional?<br /><br />Me: And some teachers like to use a chalkboard and others Powerpoint to teach. The use of mental imagery to pray any prayer is a personal choice.<br /> <br />tbcPaul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-68544692126883047052013-02-10T00:14:24.780-05:002013-02-10T00:14:24.780-05:00Ok, Paul, thanks for the info.
"It is a pra...Ok, Paul, thanks for the info. <br /><br />"It is a prayer that developed in different religious orders as early as the mid to late 12th century and became popular among lay Christians at some point in the 13th-14th century. There are many different kinds of Rosaries/Chaplets and there are correspondingly a number of different devotional prayers. I think St. Bonaventure as head of his order that developed the prayer sequence you are most familiar with. It was standardized for popular devotion in the 16th century."<br /><br />So nothing infallible was declared about it? This was not one of those Traditions?<br /><br />"I don’t. I do contemplate the significance or meaning of the event (mystery) associated with each decade of the rosary as I recite them. Can’t speak for other Catholics."<br /><br />Well some Traditionalists say that we should use mental imagery in it. So looks like the mental imagery thing is optional? <br />BTW, do you use the Traditional set of mysteries or the modern set?<br /><br />"As far as mental imagery goes, a statue or holy picture is like looking at the picture on a baseball card which helps us remember something about that person. When I pray to a saint or Mary, I focus on their “stats” which are the virtues and events in their lives which I try to model in my life. I do not pretend that the statue or picture actually is Mary, saint, Jesus or God, but since we are all made in the image of God, a physical depiction is not per se idolatrous"<br /><br />In NZ, I saw a church with a MacKillop icon. She looked very similar to photographs of her. I also saw an Orthodox icon only of a soldier (Yevgeny Rodionov), complete with Russian Army Uniform and AK-74 rifle. Do you think that icons of modern saints are actually more "accurate" than icons of Christ/Apostles/Mary/God?<br /><br />"How does a Protestant know that the prayers they pray are not based on an improper interpretation of the Scriptures and misrepresent the Word of God? "<br /><br />I think that you were involved in that GreenBaggins discussion recently. We all have degrees of doubt/uncertainty on different levels. <br />I think that this entails that RCs when they use mental imagery of the Godhead, Mary etc, need to be quite certain that their mental imageries are accurate. <br /><br />Some questions: <br />How do Orthodox view the rosary?<br />Do you think that plastic rosaries are ok or do you think that some CAF people are right in being dismayed that so many rosaries are no longer made of gems? Do you use plastic rosary?<br />Do you think that the vast majority of RCs abuse the rosary?<br />Paintings of Mary have depicted her holding a rosary. Does she pray it now? Do the apostles or saints pray it in Heaven?<br />Is it a sin for non-Catholics, like David Beckham etc to wear the rosary?<br /><br />Cheers, mate. <br />Rooneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04755386771208867195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69028361672979259832013-02-09T22:51:47.408-05:002013-02-09T22:51:47.408-05:00Mr. Rooney also asked about the Rosary. It is a p...Mr. Rooney also asked about the Rosary. It is a prayer that developed in different religious orders as early as the mid to late 12th century and became popular among lay Christians at some point in the 13th-14th century. There are many different kinds of Rosaries/Chaplets and there are correspondingly a number of different devotional prayers. I think St. Bonaventure as head of his order that developed the prayer sequence you are most familiar with. It was standardized for popular devotion in the 16th century.<br /><br />Mr. Rooney: Do RCs imagine Mary/Jesus/God by mental imagery during rosary?<br /><br />Me: I don’t. I do contemplate the significance or meaning of the event (mystery) associated with each decade of the rosary as I recite them. Can’t speak for other Catholics. <br /> <br />Mr. Rooney: Do they have to do that? do they have to do the same mental imagery when they pray to saints?<br /><br />Me: Do I have to say a rosary? No, it is private devotional prayer and is not a part of the official prayer of the Church which is the Liturgy of the Hours. (I do pray that at least twice a day.) If painting a mental picture helps one go deeper into the Paschal Mystery or using some other focus, like music or quietude, helps then I do not see anything wrong with it. Now you may ask about statues or icons...As far as mental imagery goes, a statue or holy picture is like looking at the picture on a baseball card which helps us remember something about that person. When I pray to a saint or Mary, I focus on their “stats” which are the virtues and events in their lives which I try to model in my life. I do not pretend that the statue or picture actually is Mary, saint, Jesus or God, but since we are all made in the image of God, a physical depiction is not per se idolatrous. <br /><br />Mr. Rooney: How do they know that their mental imagery does not misrepresent Mary/Jesus/God?<br /><br />Me: How does a Protestant know that the prayers they pray are not based on an improper interpretation of the Scriptures and misrepresent the Word of God? <br /><br />Whether one is Protestant, Catholic or something else, does the efficacy of any prayer not come down to this: what growth in the purgative, unitive and illuminative aspects of our spiritual life comes from praying in the manner in which we do?<br /><br />God bless!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-88244479108177955832013-02-09T22:50:55.128-05:002013-02-09T22:50:55.128-05:00Mr. Swan, You asked: “You say you personally ask M...Mr. Swan, You asked: “You say you personally ask Mary to do one thing (pray for you), while this link requests far more.”<br /><br />Here is my answer: What do you think this prayer is asking Mary to do? It seems to me that this prayer is more akin to a dedicatory prayer like the Canticle of Hannah or Zechariah. Here, the ‘pray-er’ solemnly promises to set himself apart and to associate himself to the best of their ability to lead a holy life and then gives examples of how he is going to do so. <br /><br />Mary and the saints are held in Catholic theology to be models of moral exemplarity for Christians to emulate if they wish to become more Christlike. Mary is considered the highest human model for Christians to follow as she shows us how much a human being is capable of achieving by following Christ and placing one’s total faith and submitting oneself through their fiat in the promises of God. <br /><br />Devotional prayers like this have been popular since the time of St. John Damascene who wrote, "To be devout to you, O holy Virgin, is an arm of salvation which God gives to those whom He wishes to save." Consecratory prayers like the one you reference were first made popular by Saint Anselm, whom Protestants like to cite to in support of penal substitution. The one you link to I believe is one that became popular after Fatima at the end of the First World War. Bl. Pope Pius XII wrote this about your particular prayer: "Consecration to the Mother of God is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life. This consecration tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."<br /><br />The bottom line is this: all true Marian devotion at its heart points to and leads one to closer relationship with Jesus. If you were to really study Mariology in general and this prayer in particular, you would see the Christocentric nature of it. If one doesn’t understand that, then one is not ready to pray a prayer like the one you point to. <br /><br /><br />God bless!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18887647878283862452013-02-09T20:49:37.306-05:002013-02-09T20:49:37.306-05:00Mr. Swan, You asked, "Why do your buddies get...Mr. Swan, You asked, "Why do your buddies get a free pass mocking and calling Rho names? Explain to me why Mary would approve of this sort of behavior."<br /><br />Me: Let me answer you the way Saint Paul would have answered you:<br /><br />As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. Now the body is not a single part, but many. If a foot should say, "Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. Or if an ear should say, "Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. <br />If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended. If they were all one part, where would the body be? But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you." Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. <br /><br />If we are hurting each other with our words, then we are in reality hurting ourselves as it is a bedrock Christian truth that our shared baptism incorporates us into the Body of Christ, like it or not, regardless of our particular theological positions. If James Swan hurts a certain Catholic apologist with his words, James Swan is really hurting himself. If Paul Hoffer hurts Alan Maricle with his words, then Paul Hoffer is really hurting himself. We all too often forget this truth in our apologetic exercises. <br /><br />Frankly, if each of us prayed before we posted our particular posts, comments and responses and remembered Christ’s words at Matt. 25:40 that whatsoever we do to the least of our brethren, we do unto Our Lord, we would be less insistent of using nasty language as part of our written discourse in contending for the faith in Jesus Christ that we share. Moreover, the purpose of our words is ennobled as our aim of argument is elevated. We should seek to recognize where we agree and build on that rather than exaggerating our differences. For example, Rhology acknowledged that he did believe that saints in heaven do pray for us. That is an area of agreement with a fellow Christian that frankly I was not aware of until today. And hopefully, what I have written today will give some Protestants pause to consider whether the Catholic position on prayer to saints may have some merit.<br /><br />As for Mary’s feelings on the way Christian apologists debate issues, I imagine that she would feel sorrow over our divisive conduct as it is causing suffering to the body of her Son. Our words should offer comfort to others, not shame to ourselves. I realize that this is hard for each of us who are damaged by sin, but it is something that we nevertheless should strive to overcome. <br /><br />God bless! <br />Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-87189853937117048692013-02-09T20:48:57.886-05:002013-02-09T20:48:57.886-05:00Finally, you wrote: “where did Augustine say "...<br /><br />Finally, you wrote: “where did Augustine say "...and so it's totally fine if you want to talk to dead people?” <br /><br />Me: A Catholic apologist friend has a book that contains material addressing that subject. Here are three quotes from it:<br /><br />For, even when His angels hear us, it is He Himself who hears us in them, as in His true temple not made with hands, as in those men who are His saints; and His answers, though accomplished in time, have been arranged by His eternal appointment. (City of God, x, 12) <br /><br />There was a fellow-townsman of ours at Hippo, Florentius, an old man, religious and poor, who supported himself as a tailor. Having lost his coat, and not having means to buy another, he prayed to the Twenty Martyrs, who have a very celebrated memorial shrine in our town, begging in a distinct voice that he might be clothed. . . . he, walking on in silence, saw on the shore a great fish, gasping as if just cast up, . . . on cutting up the fish, the cook found a gold ring in its belly; . . .(City of God, xxii, 8 )<br /><br />. . . upon recollection of the place in which are deposited the bodies of those whom they love, they should by prayer commend them to those same Saints, who have as patrons taken them into their charge to aid them before the Lord. (On the Care of the Dead , 6)<br /><br />I have a quote to add to the collection from Sermon 159:1:<br /><br />'There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended."<br /><br />I am glad to be of assistance!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-2073713162777055572013-02-09T20:48:07.553-05:002013-02-09T20:48:07.553-05:00You wrote: “perhaps rather than using hypocritical...<br /><br />You wrote: “perhaps rather than using hypocritical mockery and polemic to attack the practice of Marian intercessory prayer, you could have taken the time to educate us poor, stupid Catholics” <br /><br />1) I have already and you rejected it. That's on you.<br /><br />Me: Yep, I reject your mockery of it. Now offer something substantive to back up your “tun” of tennis balls.<br /><br />You: 2) I never said you were stupid. You are foolish, but that's not the same thing.<br /><br />Me: Thank you for the undeserved compliment (1 Cor. 4:10).<br /><br /><br />You: 3) I only wish you were poor in spirit, that you would come to Jesus in total submission to everything He said, not just part of it, and that you would cease your blasphemous thought that you can partially merit your justification.<br /><br />Me: As the Catholic Church teaches, I believe I merit nothing but condemnation and damnation, but God’s grace has saved me, is saving me and will save me.<br /><br />You: 4) Your verbiage here is quite mocking and polemical and attacking. Physician, heal thyself.<br /><br />Me: How is my verbiage mocking? In contrast to your treatment of a brother in Christ, I do not treat you with scorn or contempt. I do not set up strawmen and misstate what you believe as you do. If pointing out the silliness of your position is mocking, I hope that you follow my example and adopt my style of “mocking” over yours. Discourse becomes possible and consensus can be reached, even if it is only to agree to disagree.<br /><br />You: 5) And thus you're being hypocritical.<br /><br />Me: You have failed to demonstrate the initial premise of your argument-that I hold you in contempt or treat you with scorn which I most certainly do not do in order for me to be hypocritical.<br /><br />You: 6) But you haven't shown how *I* am being hypocritical; you've merely asserted it.<br /><br />Me: I have shown that you used a nonbiblical notion to attack something you think (in error I am afraid) is unbiblical. You profess to sola scriptura and yet your post does not offer a single bible verse to refute the charge made against the Catholic pro-life gentleman for his use of Marian devotional prayer as a weapon against our national sin of abortion. Instead, you use mockery and evoke an emotional appeal that has no scriptural basis. There is no love there, nothing pastoral, no Jesus to be found anywhere in your post. I dare say that is hypocritical conduct, at least as any dictionary would define it. <br />You quoting me: “your learned and infallible magisterial pronouncements”<br />LOL<br />Right, see, 'cause that's not mocking, attacking, or polemical. Nosirree. It's only OK when you do it in defense of Holy Mother Church. It's not OK when I do it.<br /> <br />Who said anything about infallible? Neither you nor Augustine are infallible, and I don't see The Magisterium® commenting here. So why did you even say that?<br /><br />Me: I do not claim infallibility. Augustine is a bishop and thus is a member of the Magisterium so at least his teachings carry some weight here. As for me, I repeat what my Church teaches and since its teachings are infallible, I have some assurance that my view on intercessory prayers to saints is correct since it mirrors the teaching of the Church. My opinions on such matters are immaterial except when they do not mirror the Church’s teaching and then humbly I stand ready to be corrected. On the other hand, your views are merely opinion since they recognize no authority higher than your own when it comes to determining what the Scriptures teach. In attacking the Catholic gentleman’s use of Marian prayer, you set yourself up in opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church and thus in effect you are claiming that your views are on par with the magisterial teachings of Catholic Church. I was merely pointing out the tenuousness of your position here. TBCPaul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-72469517364477181912013-02-09T20:46:00.261-05:002013-02-09T20:46:00.261-05:00III. Merit
You are glorified in the assembly of ...III. Merit <br /><br />You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts. Fn. 59. <br /><br />[Footnote 59 states: Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum conciliocelebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.]<br /><br />2006. The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it. <br /><br />2007. With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from Him, our Creator. <br /><br />2008. The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of His grace. The fatherly action of God is first on His own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />2009. Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." Fn. 60. [Footnote 60 cites to Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. Fn. 61. [Footnote 61 states: Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.] "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts." Fn. 62. [Footnote 62 quotes from St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367. In the Latin, “Dona Ipsius sunt merita tua.” ] [Emphasis added]<br /><br />And I thank you for the opportunity to show your readers the difference between polemics and apologetics. <br /><br />You wrote: “Perhaps you've heard of Sola Scriptura and Mark 7:13.”<br /><br />Me: Yes, not only have I heard of it, I have read it and have offered exegetical comments on this particular passage. Mark 7:13 is where Jesus condemns man-made oral traditions such as sola scriptura, or at least the way the Pharasaic School of Shammai practiced it in his day. <br /><br />TBCPaul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.com