tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post196129710045031789..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Luther Believe Faith is the Gift of God?James Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-6623053799945389222017-11-04T20:45:05.892-04:002017-11-04T20:45:05.892-04:00I believe u r spot on with regard to ur concern th...I believe u r spot on with regard to ur concern that Luther has been misrepresented and that he did in fact believe that faith was 100% a gift of God and that he was a monergist, NOT a synergist, which is what Melanchthon managed to keep under wraps about himself until shortly before Luther's death. The gnesio-Lutherans stuck with justification by faith alone (JBFA), a faith that is a gift from God that regenerates us by the Holy Spirit. IMHO> Edward Carr Frankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08700041844258196141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45337546176828269242012-03-13T15:59:31.957-04:002012-03-13T15:59:31.957-04:00james, i will paste this here, i believe it is app...james, i will paste this here, i believe it is appropriate to your specific questions, maybe it will serve as an answer from the WELS viewpoint (and website, Q&A):<br /><br />Baptism Gives Saving Faith<br /><br />Paul assured the Galatians, “All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ” (Gal 3:27). In and through baptism a most intimate link between the sinner and the Savior is promised and assumed. Other New Testament passages affirm that the gift of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, and salvation are bestowed through baptism. They are not just symbolized or pictured in baptism; baptism is said to give these blessings. Perhaps because of such vigorous promises, people speak of baptism “guaranteeing” salvation. But more needs to be said.<br /><br />Saving Faith Needs Gospel Nourishment<br /> <br />If the baptized sinner retains saving faith, he or she will retain the gift of salvation and inherit heaven. But this is different than saying baptism guarantees heaven. Baptism is God’s way of beginning or enriching a lifelong relationship, but it remains vital that the faith given be nurtured and strengthened through the gospel aside from baptism. This is why, when children are baptized, we normally urge parents and others to include the children in family devotions, train them to read Scripture at home as well as participate in public worship and Sunday school.<br /><br />It is important that all who are baptized enjoy growth in faith and Christian lifestyle to maintain their hold on God’s salvation promises. If the saving faith received through baptism is allowed to die, the result is a personal forfeiting of spiritual and eternal life. It is irresponsible to speak of baptism “guaranteeing” salvation unless this kind of clarification is immediately added. God has chosen to give and preserve faith through instruments that accompany baptism, namely the Bible and the Lord’s Supper. To despise these is more like guaranteeing eternal death, not life.<br /><br />A Parallel to Circumcision<br /><br />Since the Bible draws the striking parallel between baptism and Old Testament circumcision (see Colossians 2:11-12) we may draw a fitting analogy. Any Old Testament Jew who thought that his being circumcised was a “guarantee” of eternal blessing was very wrong. Paul explains: “A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code” (Romans 2:28-29a). This is not a despising or a denial of the blessings received through circumcision. But it is a strong reminder that unbelief forfeits all blessings once received through the God-given external rite with its internal promises.<br /><br />Similarly, a baptized person is not to be considered a believer if he was once baptized but has neglected the gospel ever since. To think that baptism guarantees the preserving of faith for a lifetime is unwise presumption involving a misunderstanding of how the Spirit works. The Spirit gives saving faith, as he does with infants through baptism, and then preserves faith, through Word and sacrament, until we depart this life at death. We are commanded to seek and rejoice in both aspects of his gracious work. We desperately need both. We praise him for giving us both.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499561821949444656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-7861097293313485532012-03-13T15:51:18.514-04:002012-03-13T15:51:18.514-04:00james,
your answers are plainly answered by rev f...james,<br /><br />your answers are plainly answered by rev fisk in a much better way than i ever could.. my pointing you to that link was kind of like ordering take out from a fancy restaurant for visitors in my home since i can't cook very well..i love to cook, but you won't be satisfied..<br /><br />i would think that someone looking for a better understanding of lutheran beliefs regarding baptismal regeneration would take the word of a lutheran and follow the link to that information given in a super clear, concise, and theological manner which he (you) would appreciate.<br /><br />:)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499561821949444656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-16510106953649865962012-03-13T13:44:26.222-04:002012-03-13T13:44:26.222-04:00When a faith comes wherein the baptized confess fa...<i>When a faith comes wherein the baptized confess faith in Christ, then baptism is complete.</i><br /><br />Please explain this sentence. Thanks.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36172215954719927972012-03-13T12:33:07.142-04:002012-03-13T12:33:07.142-04:00"But if all who are baptized receive the gift..."But if all who are baptized receive the gift of faith in a monergistic way, I would expect to find that all who have been given such a gift of faith through baptism should persevere to the end, or, for the sake of argument, have a living faith at some point in their life, even if it is lost some time along the way."<br /><br />I would say that makes sense. We should expect that.<br /><br />We all sin and fall away, but do some *ultimately* fall away? If some do it is their own choice. That possibility cannot affect the assurance that Christians have that God will save them, because their assurance of salvation is concrete and unmistakable and they can rest assured that God certainly will not disappoint them.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-65388950564531037452012-03-13T00:19:24.462-04:002012-03-13T00:19:24.462-04:00James Swan,
We are told that the forgiveness of...James Swan,<br /><br /> We are told that the forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit are given in baptism (Acts 2:38).<br /><br /> When a faith comes wherein the baptized confess faith in Christ, then baptism is complete.<br /><br /> We do believe that people can and do walk away from their baptisms. I do. But the Lord leads us to repentance, and returns us, once again to our baptism.<br /><br />Is there a point where the Lord will let a baptized person go...forever?<br /><br />I think that's a question that we cannot answer, but it certainly is possible.<br /><br />Sorry for the late response.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-76367311463607471892012-03-12T23:29:40.431-04:002012-03-12T23:29:40.431-04:00From what I read, Luther believe that salvation is...From what I read, Luther believe that salvation is entirely God's responsibilty and damnation is entirely man's responsibility. This assertion is of course seen as "illogical" by many like the doctrine of the Trinity but is upheld. Luther's advice is not to try to enquire into this mystery of the Divine majesty. The Reformed will probbaly disagree on this assertion.Martin Yeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161902509192193592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44779832435803877072012-03-12T23:11:32.834-04:002012-03-12T23:11:32.834-04:00Thanks for the suggestions and link, but I'd r...Thanks for the suggestions and link, but I'd rather just have a few simple answers to my questions, posted here. <br /><br />I'm not the one who brought up baptism in this discussion, a Lutheran did:<br /><br /><b>Not sure how Reformed view it, but the Lutheran view is that faith is a gift of God and that faith comes in Baptism (Acts 2:38)...and through the hearing of God's Word...when and where He wills.</b><br /><br />I'm not looking for any sort of debate. This is simply a fact finding encounter of what the current Lutheran position is.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-59095470074882604662012-03-12T20:32:08.971-04:002012-03-12T20:32:08.971-04:00and in case you're not aware of this internet ...and in case you're not aware of this internet resource, i've posted a link to rev fisk and his video blog dealing with all things lutheran.<br /><br />worldvieweverlasting.comAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499561821949444656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-13602135567395256782012-03-12T19:59:46.361-04:002012-03-12T19:59:46.361-04:00james,
i would suggest you find a local confessio...james,<br /><br />i would suggest you find a local confessional orthodox lutheran church and take the Bible information classes generally used for prospective members or people, like yourself, who want to know more about lutheranism..they are generally offered regularly and i'm sure the pastor would be thrilled to swim the deep waters with you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499561821949444656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-68474706369189433582012-03-12T08:30:40.000-04:002012-03-12T08:30:40.000-04:00Not sure how Reformed view it, but the Lutheran vi...<i>Not sure how Reformed view it, but the Lutheran view is that faith is a gift of God and that faith comes in Baptism (Acts 2:38)...and through the hearing of God's Word...when and where He wills.</i><br /><br />As I did a cursory search of the boc, baptism (a visible sign of God's Word)"grants eternal salvation to all who believe."<br /><br />While I might not agree fully with it, I can understand how Lutherans say baptism is another form of the Word of God, and thus has a powerful ability. Faith is a response to God's Word. If one is baptized with faith present, they have received one of the promises that Christ will be their savior. It is His promise to us that he will save those with faith. The Word of God connected with water makes that water a powerful visible sign of God's Word. I get this. <br /><br />The question I would have for my Lutheran friends is the following: are all who are baptized given the ability to believe, or the gift of faith? I would have no problem in understanding Lutherans to believe that indeed, certain children have faith present in their baptism (prooftext: John the Baptist kicking in the womb).<br /><br />But if all who are baptized receive the gift of faith in a monergistic way, I would expect to find that all who have been given such a gift of faith through baptism should persevere to the end, or, for the sake of argument, have a living faith at some point in their life, even if it is lost some time along the way.<br /><br />The baptism issue is one of the reasons I'm not a Lutheran. While I might not agree with Lutheranism, I'd at least like to understand it better. I have no desire to caricature Lutheranism.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-13398782343258468142012-03-12T07:51:13.046-04:002012-03-12T07:51:13.046-04:00but it has been my understanding that Reformed Chr...<i>but it has been my understanding that Reformed Christians wouldn't say things like "the spirit is received through faith". Wouldn't the Reformed tend to say that faith is created by the spirit?</i><br /><br />Your question sounds to me like an ordo salutis issue. I hear you saying that for Lutherans, the Spirit produces faith, and then the Spirit is received through faith. If I've correctly stated what you're saying, you then put forth the following in regard to the Reformed: Faith is created by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not received through faith.<br /><br />Am I following you here?James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-86427296389308408042012-03-11T23:34:50.944-04:002012-03-11T23:34:50.944-04:00From the little I knew, Luther and Lutherans gener...From the little I knew, Luther and Lutherans generally believe that saving faith is a gift of God. But I also read that Luther do speak in both ways too about certain subjects. He is not adverse to holding unresolved tensionsMartin Yeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161902509192193592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-15174359282520577752012-03-11T21:16:52.760-04:002012-03-11T21:16:52.760-04:00Oops. I meant 'The Holy Spirit' is given ...Oops. I meant 'The Holy Spirit' is given in Baptism...and that faith comes by hearing.<br /><br />When faith comes...then Baptism is complete.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46226399490815035902012-03-11T21:14:33.630-04:002012-03-11T21:14:33.630-04:00Not sure how Reformed view it, but the Lutheran vi...Not sure how Reformed view it, but the Lutheran view is that faith is a gift of God and that faith comes in Baptism (Acts 2:38)...and through the hearing of God's Word...when and where He wills.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10885590350859366862012-03-11T09:11:00.246-04:002012-03-11T09:11:00.246-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-91495576492613815752012-03-10T20:19:39.045-05:002012-03-10T20:19:39.045-05:00I would love for Hahn to be able to listen to this...I would love for Hahn to be able to listen to this:<br /><br />http://theoldadam.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/i-believe-that-i-cannot-believe.mp3<br /><br />It's Lutheranism 101Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.com