tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post167811205761648487..comments2024-03-13T11:10:01.605-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Whitaker's Disputations on Holy Scripture: An IntroductionJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-37664695149169780362010-05-22T12:51:58.934-04:002010-05-22T12:51:58.934-04:00Matthew -
Excellent Idea for a series! I can'...Matthew -<br /><br />Excellent Idea for a series! I can't imagine a more important topic in the current climate. It's too bad that so much ink has to be spilled over what is and should be obvious to every one that has been called by God, but understanding why we believe in the sufficiency of what God says should make for an edifying study in it's own right. <br /><br />The cavils that have already been hurled against this work and against the clearness of God's revelation in your introductory post prove that this will be a most worthy study.<br /><br />Thanks again!Andrew Suttleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05006722357616296522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-19658790779090356772010-05-21T15:04:30.420-04:002010-05-21T15:04:30.420-04:00* I was saying, Towner disagrees with Whitaker in ...* I was saying, Towner disagrees with Whitaker in that Towner believes the extent of what Paul is calling "the Scriptures" only extends as far as the OT, but still, it is "profitable" so that "the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39642933077648603372010-05-21T15:00:28.551-04:002010-05-21T15:00:28.551-04:00By the way, you mention how important 2 Tim 3:16 i...By the way, you mention how important 2 Tim 3:16 is to our position, and then you wonder why someone would spend 14 pages doing an exegesis of it.<br /><br />Incidentally, in case you hadn't noticed, Towner agrees with Kittel to the extent that it's not "each verse" or "each book" but "each incident," each episode in which God demonstrates his power. Towner disagrees with Whitaker <br /><br />You should consider that there are different ways that we can characterize "Sola Scriptura" that are fully in line with our own doctrinal statement of it, without being susceptible to the "the [typical] RC objection [that] involves a level confusion: conflating the rule of faith with the special revelation it identifies."<br /><br />1: The Bible alone is the Word of God.<br /><br />2: The Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice.<br /><br />3: The Bible is the sole final authority in matters of doctrine.<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/05/james-anderson-on-sola-scriptura.html<br /><br />By the way, if you want to talk about individual verses upon which "a lot is at stake," even though it's very, very difficult to determine the meaning of it, you should check out Matt 16:18-19 in some of the commentaries. That is BY FAR a slam dunk in your favor, and yet, you Roman Catholics have got far more invested in that one verse (yours is a whole system that will crash and burn if THAT one comes down), than anything that Protestants have got riding on 2 Tim 3:16.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-42628648943170031512010-05-21T14:39:19.563-04:002010-05-21T14:39:19.563-04:00Just giving you a little of your own medicine.Just giving you a little of your own medicine.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-68906965190527707932010-05-21T14:20:20.790-04:002010-05-21T14:20:20.790-04:00John,
I should have been more clear: I *never* s...John, <br /><br />I should have been more clear: I *never* said his whole book was sunk based on my argument, nor did I base my argument on one line from a Bible dictionary. <br /><br />I said his comments on 2 Tim 3:16 in support of SS are sunk, based on the 'pasa graphe' argument, to which Protestant Scholars readily concede some key points (e.g. the TDNT notes graphe in 2 Tim 3:16 is uncertain, but categorizes it most likely as 'individual book' or 'individual passage'). <br /><br />Hopefully this puts perspective on my overall comments, because you seemed to be drawing from them more than I intended.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-30617490402650737942010-05-21T13:55:10.461-04:002010-05-21T13:55:10.461-04:00Nick, it's ridiculous to think that you've...Nick, it's ridiculous to think that you've been able to "sink" Whitaker's whole 600+ page book on the strength of a one-line citation from a Bible dictionary. <br /><br />For you (a) not only to think that, but (b) to bombastically come over here trumpeting it, really, really, really shows your immaturity and lack of wisdom. <br /><br />You seem like an enthusiastic guy with lots of energy. You had mentioned early on that Whitaker made "some of the best apologetics arguments regarding Sola Scriptura I've seen." Why don't you interact directly with some of them on a case by case basis, and prove to us just how "very deficient" he is. <br /><br />Start yet another Whitaker series. The world needs more Whitaker.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-88448514216105538422010-05-21T13:41:46.734-04:002010-05-21T13:41:46.734-04:00John,
I didn't miss that part at all. What W...John, <br /><br />I didn't miss that part at all. What Whitaker is doing is assuming one *possible* option, when there are other equally valid options. That's the point. The term 'pasa' has a range of meaning. Further, Whitaker didn't compare apples to apples, for none of his passages were talking about Scripture itself. He never cited an example (at least on p633) where "all" meant "the whole body of Scripture". He doesn't analyze the fact "Scripture" in singular most often refers to individual Scriptures. <br /><br />Appealing to context is of limited benefit, for Paul uses a different Greek term for "Scripture," and it's also in the plural. I'm not sure how you can accuse me of misusing Kittel, when Kittel confirms certain points I've made.<br /><br />What book of Towner are you speaking of? I'd be interesting to see why 14 pages is necessary to exegete 2 Tim 3:16f. <br /><br />Your advice on knowing what it means requires knowing what it says is of limited value, for what it says can be understood multiple ways. That 2 Tim 3:16A is not fully clear in that it can carry many meanings is acknowledged by Protestant Scholars. <br /><br /><b>This is by no means a so called "quibble," a lot is riding on 2 Tim 3:16, and the Greek nor context comes anywhere close to an advantage for your side. At most it's one possible option of many, but dogma can't be built from an assumption.</b>Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69183572808734937472010-05-21T05:05:27.075-04:002010-05-21T05:05:27.075-04:00David Waltz: Me: Indeed, and armed with such a dic...David Waltz: <i>Me: Indeed, and armed with such a dictum, you should be very careful if you challenge someone who believes that the Wisdom of Solomon is Scripture.</i><br /><br />But if it isn't Scripture in God's view, it simply isn't.<br /><br /><i> Of course he did, but are you (or any other non-inspired, non-infallible individual)? BTW, which verse of Scripture was Jesus quoting in John 7:38?</i><br /><br />Regarding John 7:38, the ESV text notes references to Proverbs 18:4, Isaiah 12:3, an Ezekiel 47:1. This works especially if Jesus has Himself in view as the new Temple. There's a good analysis of this in Carson/Beale's "Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament" pg 454.<br /><br />Given some of the textual questions you've asked, I'm wondering if you have any Greek Commentaries? I'd highly recommend that you look at some of the more recent crop of commentaries for answers to specific textual questions. "Before you can know what a text means, you have to know what it says."John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-55843863747753143262010-05-21T03:33:07.463-04:002010-05-21T03:33:07.463-04:00Hi John,
You posted:
>>In truth, Scripture...Hi John,<br /><br />You posted:<br /><br />>>In truth, Scripture is Scripture whether or not any man or church council says it's Scripture. Do you wish to deny this? God is not dependent on you or "the Church" or anyone for His Word to be His Word.>><br /><br />Me: Indeed, and armed with such a dictum, you should be very careful if you challenge someone who believes that the Wisdom of Solomon is Scripture.<br /><br />>>Second, Jesus was well aware of what "all Scripture" was when he cited "all the Scriptures," "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets (Luke 24:25ff.) He knew what the limits were of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The earliest church knew of the extent of these Scriptures.>><br /><br />Me: Of course he did, but are you (or any other non-inspired, non-infallible individual)? BTW, which verse of Scripture was Jesus quoting in John 7:38?<br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-58694470555812652122010-05-20T21:19:43.024-04:002010-05-20T21:19:43.024-04:00Nick said: One primary issue I'm going to loo...Nick said: <i> One primary issue I'm going to look into is how Whitaker utilizes 2 Timothy 3:16f, and especially if he addresses the Greek 'pasa graphe' ("all Scripture") angle. (I still cannot find anyone who's actually addressed the Greek of 2 Tim 3:16.)</i><br /><br />and <i> For example, I tracked down what appears to be his main focus on 2 Timothy 3:16f where he discusses 'pasa graphe' ("all Scripture"), it's on page 633. However, Whitaker merely assumes what he's trying to prove (and he does so throughout much of the other pages I read). </i><br /><br />Then you pretty much missed the part where he spends the better part analyzing the statement that <i>"All" in this place is equivalent to "the whole", and is "frequently so used…</i> He then goes on to cite seven different scriptures where the word "all" means "the whole body of scripture. For Paul says above that Timothy was skilled in the scriptures from a boy. Now it was not in only some one part of scripture or in some single book that he was conversant, but in the whole of scripture." All of this from page 633, where you say that "Whitaker merely assumes what he's trying to prove."<br /><br /><i> St Bellarmine came up with the 'all scripture' argument, Whitaker merely sidestepped it… </i><br /><br />This is a ridiculous claim on your part. He states each of Bellarmine's objections, and he responds to them point by point. <br /><br /><i>If 'pasa graphe' (all scripture) actually means "every individual book or passage of Scripture", then Whitaker's argument is sunk. … Kittel's TDNT Vol 1, P130, B.3, plainly says 'graphe' in 2 Tim 3:16 can very well mean 'individual books or individual passages' … The issue is what 2 Tim 3:16f is saying. If it is saying "every individual book of Scripture is sufficient" that is very different from "All Scripture as a whole is sufficient."</i><br /><br />Bellarmine's statement that "every part of scripture then, and each several book, must be perfect." Your appeal to Kittel shows that you don't have any idea what you are talking about. <br /><br />I'll remind you of a thing that I've said here on more than one occasion. "Before you can say what a particular text means, you mush know what it says." Towner gives a fairly detailed explanation to the effect that these verses (2 Tim 3:14-17). Towner's explication of this section runs from pages 580-594. Needless to say, your desire to quibble about what "graphe" means largely ignores the context, and that is, <br /><br /><i>"The ground gained in the discourse is specifically related to the use and usefulness of Scripture. As Paul has confronted obstinate challenges to or outright denials of his authority by means of applications of the OT texts, so too must Timothy [confront challenges to or denials of his authority by means of applications of the OT texts]. God has ensured that the OT, text by text, has the authority and the power to achieve his desires; Paul's experience in this very use of the Scriptures is Timothy's resource and paradigm (3:10-14) for continuing the Pauline ministry.</i> <br /><br />This again illustrates the principle of using Scripture to prove one's authority, and one's succession to authority.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-5766714612563558252010-05-20T19:57:59.754-04:002010-05-20T19:57:59.754-04:00John,
St Bellarmine came up with the 'all sc...John, <br /><br />St Bellarmine came up with the 'all scripture' argument, Whitaker merely sidestepped it. <br /><br />The point isn't whether "Scripture is Scripture," for nobody denies this. The issue is what 2 Tim 3:16f is saying. If it is saying "every individual book of Scripture is sufficient" that is very different from "All Scripture as a whole is sufficient." <br /><br />As for my post on James White, <a href="http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/04/rebuttal-of-james-whites-analysis-of-my.html" rel="nofollow">I responded in full</a>, noting some serious problems he opened himself up to.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52844652775225425642010-05-20T19:43:32.814-04:002010-05-20T19:43:32.814-04:00"What's the highest ranking RC clergy in ..."What's the highest ranking RC clergy in history (and in recent times, say the last 100 years) to ever convert to Protestantism? Has an RC bishop ever done so?"<br /><br />You will hardly find a Catholic priest in good standing converting to Protestantism. The same goes for Catholic seminarians. What you will most likely find are priests who run into moral problems or face other disciplinary issues and having no other employable skills, decide, as a last resort, to jump to Protestantism where they are held as "deities" (instant celebrities). The challenge is to find a Catholic priest with no prior history of run-ins with the Church (often unknown to the public) who announces from the pulpit that he is living the priesthood/Church for Protestantism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-64154126714636449912010-05-20T18:27:50.818-04:002010-05-20T18:27:50.818-04:00Truth -- I couldn't say.Truth -- I couldn't say.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85975576804039442802010-05-20T17:52:21.890-04:002010-05-20T17:52:21.890-04:00"It was going to force even James White (may ...<i>"It was going to force even James White (may his name be blessed) convert to Catholicism!"</i><br /><br />Wow. That's audacious.<br /><br />That would be like the Pope converting to Geneva Calvinism as either a Reform Presbyterian or a Reform Baptist.<br /><br />Hey John,<br /><br />You obviously know about Francis Beckwith's conversion back to Catholicism. You obviously know that there's been Roman Catholic priests and nuns who've converted to Protestantism.<br /><br />Q: What's the highest ranking RC clergy in history (and in recent times, say the last 100 years) to ever convert to Protestantism? Has an RC bishop ever done so?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-21102271393949668292010-05-20T17:44:04.689-04:002010-05-20T17:44:04.689-04:00Nick: For example, I tracked down what appears to ...Nick: <i>For example, I tracked down what appears to be his main focus on 2 Timothy 3:16f where he discusses 'pasa graphe' ("all Scripture"), it's on page 633. However, Whitaker merely assumes what he's trying to prove (and he does so throughout much of the other pages I read). If 'pasa graphe' (all scripture) actually means "every individual book or passage of Scripture", then Whitaker's argument is sunk. </i><br /><br />Nick: I don't doubt that Whitaker addressed every single argument that Bellarmine threw at him. I'm guessing that what happened here is that Bellarmine was not as clever as you, and hadn't yet come up with the "canon" issue. Maybe he had some reservations about it, or all of his other arguments having been soundly refuted by Whitaker, he simply just left it for someone later to come up with the "all Scripture" argument.<br /><br />In truth, Scripture is Scripture whether or not any man or church council says it's Scripture. Do you wish to deny this? God is not dependent on you or "the Church" or anyone for His Word to be His Word.<br /><br />Second, Jesus was well aware of what "all Scripture" was when he cited "all the Scriptures," "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets (Luke 24:25ff.) He knew what the limits were of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The earliest church knew of the extent of these Scriptures. <br /><br />Third, there is very little question that the Gospels and Paul's letters were collected very early on. Peter refers to Paul's writings as "Scriptures". Did Pope Peter perhaps have some "infallible" word that he failed to pass along? <br /><br />Fourth, we know far more about what was and wasn't Scripture, very early on, as Jason Engwer elaborates in thorough fashion, here:<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2009/06/new-testament-canon.html<br /><br />Your mockery here just simply shows you to be what you really are. I'm thinking back to the time when you had come up with an apologetic argument that nobody else had thought of. It was going to force even James White (may his name be blessed) convert to Catholicism!<br /><br />Whatever happened with that?John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-79544601753478584102010-05-20T16:14:11.532-04:002010-05-20T16:14:11.532-04:00Louis,
Not all in 30 min. I wrote a blog article...Louis, <br /><br />Not all in 30 min. I wrote <a href="http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/04/sola-scriptura-is-unscriptural.html" rel="nofollow">a blog article about pasa graphe in 2 Tim 3:16</a> and have spent a number of days discussing it. <br /><br />I know specifics of what I'm looking for, so it only took about 30 mins to look into it. I did a search for "all Scripture" on the google book link and it took me to page 633, where Whitaker seems to address the issue as fully as he's going to.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-90055745675486750162010-05-20T15:31:01.183-04:002010-05-20T15:31:01.183-04:00I never heard of Whitaker before, so I'm very ...I never heard of Whitaker before, so I'm very interested in this series as well.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-2100837120594130042010-05-20T14:46:41.794-04:002010-05-20T14:46:41.794-04:00Nick, you figured all that out in 30 minutes?Nick, you figured all that out in 30 minutes?louishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447894010657835114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-81108444736658560172010-05-20T14:28:51.002-04:002010-05-20T14:28:51.002-04:00After reading through a bit of this book, I would ...After reading through a bit of this book, I would say Whitaker makes some of the best apologetics arguments regarding Sola Scriptura I've seen, yet he is still very deficient. <br /><br />For example, I tracked down what appears to be his main focus on 2 Timothy 3:16f where he discusses 'pasa graphe' ("all Scripture"), it's on page 633. However, Whitaker merely assumes what he's trying to prove (and he does so throughout much of the other pages I read). If 'pasa graphe' (all scripture) actually means "every individual book or passage of Scripture", then Whitaker's argument is sunk. Assuming and proving are two different things. In all honesty, Whitaker should have known/realized that "pasa graphe" can quite easily mean "every individual book or passage of Scripture" (especially given graphe is singular in Greek here, not plural), and modern Protestant scholars rightly affirm this (for example, <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ltZBUW_F9ogC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=kittel+graphe&source=bl&ots=4zVFMTtOfw&sig=011m_GmjNpP5o1s-XdbGqUkXQ3E&hl=en&ei=WHz1S9jnFIPesgPp8eT1Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">Kittel's TDNT Vol 1, P130, B.3, plainly says 'graphe' in 2 Tim 3:16 can very well mean 'individual books or individual passages'</a>). <br /><br />I eagerly await the next few posts in this series on BA; I just hope the arguments are solid and present evidence in favor of the Protestant side, as opposed to assumptions and 'negative proof'.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-40585264013703729122010-05-20T13:55:14.199-04:002010-05-20T13:55:14.199-04:00This is a great post. I've noticed an increase...This is a great post. I've noticed an increase in the quality of BA posts lately. <br /><br />One primary issue I'm going to look into is how Whitaker utilizes 2 Timothy 3:16f, and especially if he addresses the Greek 'pasa graphe' ("all Scripture") angle. (I still cannot find anyone who's actually addressed the Greek of 2 Tim 3:16.)Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46746922235318039342010-05-20T13:31:46.011-04:002010-05-20T13:31:46.011-04:00Ever since I've known him, Pastor David King h...Ever since I've known him, Pastor David King has been recommending this work as one of the best resources ever on Scripture. I'm really looking forward to this as well.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-65471443118036459702010-05-20T12:31:04.425-04:002010-05-20T12:31:04.425-04:00Looking forward to this, both here and at Greenbag...Looking forward to this, both here and at Greenbaggins.louishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447894010657835114noreply@blogger.com