tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post116036314309886019..comments2024-03-13T11:10:01.605-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Cyril of Jerusalem and Sola ScripturaJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1161285047071901322006-10-19T15:10:00.000-04:002006-10-19T15:10:00.000-04:00Mr. Swan,You said:Cyril definately believed the ch...Mr. Swan,<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/><EM>Cyril definately believed the church has authority, as do I. The issue is what Cyril believed was the ultimate authority for Christian truth.</EM><BR/><BR/>Well, I could have sworn that you said, either on your blog or in the CARM debate, that Cyril believed that Scripture was the "sole authority," in which case you would be incorrect because he obviously views the Church to be authoritative as well. But, I can't seen to find that now. Perhaps someone else said it.<BR/><BR/>With your comment, I see that you believe Cyril was a "sola" scripturist, not a "solo" scripurtist. I have always been confused by this distinction. It just seems like a desparate attempt to acknowledge the role of Tradition and of our ancient creeds yet still maintain the "ultimate" authority of Scripture. In the "sola" understanding, is the Church (or Tradition) really that much of an "authority" in the life of a protestant if it gets dismissed every time it disagrees with his interpretation of Scripture? In that system, Church doesn't seem like much of an authority at all. But, perhaps this is a digression.<BR/><BR/>The point is that I don't see "solo" or "sola" in the paragraphs from Cyril's <EM>Lectures</EM> that you cited. I think that a balanced look at how he viewed both the authority of Scripture and the authority of the Church shows that he is speaking of the <EM><B>material sufficiency</EM></B> of Scripture, not its formal sufficiency. <BR/><BR/>Lecture 5:12 is a critical piece of this context. Look at what it says again:<BR/><BR/>"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures" (5:12).<BR/><BR/>Catechumens are to keep that only which is<BR/>1. Delivered to thee by the Church (this would be Tradition).<BR/>2. Built up strongly out of all the Scriptures.<BR/><BR/>But, what is that which is delivered by the Church and attested in the Scriptures? It is the Teaching of Christ, the Deposit of Faith handed on to the apostles. <EM><B>That</EM></B> is what is important to Cyril, and as a bishop he would have felt a great responsibility to preserve Apostolic teaching. The Church and the Scriptures are rules (and equal rules) because they both attest to this Deposit.<BR/><BR/>That is what the Catholic Church believes and that is what Cyril believed.<BR/><BR/>How could one say that Cyril believed the Church to be something he could toss aside whenever it disagreed with him? Cyril specifically says that it is the Church who:<BR/><BR/>--"teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men's knowledge" (18:23)<BR/>--is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (18:25; quoting 1 Tim 3:15)<BR/>--is the one in whom we should ever abide (18:26)<BR/>--has "power without limit over the whole world" (18:27)<BR/>--delivers instruction for eternal life (18:28).<BR/><BR/>I think you have severely downplayed Cyril's understanding of the role of the Church. In Cyril's mind, the Church is not an inferior rule. Instead, the Church is just as much a guide as the Scriptures, and a doctrine taught by the Church is just as sure as a doctrine taught in Scripture.<BR/><BR/>In my opinion, the context I have provided bears this out. I await your treatment of it.<BR/><BR/>Pax Christi,<BR/>phatcatholicphatcatholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06723028878747648927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1161274119798707492006-10-19T12:08:00.000-04:002006-10-19T12:08:00.000-04:00phatcat-Cyril definately believed the church has a...phatcat-<BR/><BR/>Cyril definately believed the church has authority, as do I. The issue is what Cyril believed was the ultimate authority for Christian truth.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1161203568504630962006-10-18T16:32:00.000-04:002006-10-18T16:32:00.000-04:00Mr. Swan,Could it be that Cyril upholded both the ...Mr. Swan,<BR/><BR/>Could it be that Cyril upholded both the authority of Scripture and the authority of the Church (as is the Catholic practice)?<BR/><BR/>In his <EM>Lectures</EM> we also read:<BR/><BR/>"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures" (<B>5:12</B>).<BR/><BR/>"And to be brief, let us neither separate them, nor make a confusion: neither say thou ever that the Son is foreign to the Father, nor admit those who say that the Father is at one time Father, and at another Son: for these are strange and impious statements, and not the doctrines of the Church" (<B>11:18</B>).<BR/><BR/>"But lest any from lack of learning, should suppose from the different titles of the Holy Ghost that these are divers spirits, and not one and the self-same, which alone there is, therefore the Catholic Church guarding thee beforehand hath delivered to thee in the profession of the faith, that thou "BELIEVE IN ONE HOLY GHOST THE COMFORTER, WHO SPAKE BY THE PROPHETS;" that thou mightest know, that though His names be many, the Holy Spirit is but one;--of which names, we will now rehearse to you a few out of many" (<B>17:3</B>, original emphasis).<BR/><BR/>"It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men's knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts" (<B>18:23</B>).<BR/><BR/>"Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (<B>18:25</B>).<BR/><BR/>"[F]or this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, 'And in one Holy Catholic Church;' that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated" (<B>18:26</B>).<BR/><BR/>"And while the kings of particular nations have bounds set to their authority, the Holy Church Catholic alone extends her power without limit over the whole world; for God, as it is written, hath made her border peace" (<B>18:27</B>).<BR/><BR/>"In this Holy Catholic Church receiving instruction and behaving ourselves virtuously, we shall attain the kingdom of heaven, and inherit ETERNAL LIFE; for which also we endure all toils, that we may be made partakers thereof from the Lord" (<B>18:28</B>, original emphasis).<BR/><BR/>These are interesting statements, and in the very least, they <EM>imply</EM> Cyril's acknowledgement of the authority of the Church just as much as the articles you have cited <EM>imply</EM> (as you admitted) his acknowledgment of the authority of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Pax Christi,<BR/>phatcatholicphatcatholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06723028878747648927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1160442936764528792006-10-09T21:15:00.000-04:002006-10-09T21:15:00.000-04:00John-I was just looking at that book last week- I'...John-<BR/><BR/>I was just looking at that book last week- I'll probably be picking it up.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/> JamesJames Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1160366074973145652006-10-08T23:54:00.000-04:002006-10-08T23:54:00.000-04:00Hello,Do you have a copy of William Whitaker's Dis...Hello,<BR/><BR/>Do you have a copy of William Whitaker's <I>Disputations on Holy Scripture</I>? I am reluctant to recommend a book I have not personally read, but suspect you would greatly like it.<BR/><BR/>The Oxford DNB notes of Whitaker: "it is said that Bellarmine placed his picture above his desk, rather as Montgomery was to keep an eye on Rommel."<BR/><BR/>JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com