tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post1024441893832606190..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: My Snarky Little Exaggeration on 16th Century Roman Catholic ApologeticsJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-55010050280318517362009-12-10T19:22:46.062-05:002009-12-10T19:22:46.062-05:00Frankly Paul, other than the book giving you some ...Frankly Paul, other than the book giving you some interesting information, I find it highly unlikely you'll disagree with the conclusions of the author.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-77455332049722802512009-12-08T21:34:04.763-05:002009-12-08T21:34:04.763-05:00Hi Mr. Swan, thank you for your gracious offer. I...Hi Mr. Swan, thank you for your gracious offer. I have tracked the book down at a Catholic college library about 15 miles away that I have privileges at and have reserved it. I will let you know when I have read it so we can dialogue on it.<br /><br />God bless!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46846498414065313482009-12-07T12:00:21.401-05:002009-12-07T12:00:21.401-05:00-cont.-
I would also be interested to see what be...-cont.-<br /><br /><i>I would also be interested to see what bearing he feels the issue of censorship by both Protestant and Catholic secular and religious authorities had on how many works were published. </i><br /><br />I read the book quite a while back now, so I'd have to do a close reading again to locate information on this.. From memory, and quickly flipping through it, Bagchi notes a related issue: A Roman Catholic was not to dispute with a known heretic. Heretics were only to be corrected by authority alone (as Tetzel pointed out). Bagchi notes: "Disputing with heretics, they feared, implied the negotiability of the Catholic faith... or it suggested something equally unacceptable, that heretics were...open to the Spirit of Truth" (p.211).<br /><br /><i>Ditto in regards to the fact that secular authorities licensed who could operate printing presses to prevent literature they disagreed with from being published and what bearing this would have had on the numbers of books published. </i><br /><br />This was also addressed in the book, if I recall. I'd have to thumb through it a bit to locate the section.<br /><br /><i>Additionally, I would like to see what time period and geographical area his researches cover. Does his work cover the Counter Reformation? St. Francis de Sales' published writings were very well received in Le Chablais and elsewhere in the Calvinist portions of France and led to the reversion of tens of thousands back to the Catholic faith. Thus, there are examples of Catholic writings being very well received.</i><br /><br />If you recall the exact title of the book and points I made in this very entry, your question is answered. Without knowing the statistics, but having a bit of a clue as to the advancement of the Reformation in Western Europe, I would venture to guess Protestants outsold Roman Catholics in terms of books and pamphlets.<br /><br />On the other hand, don't miss my overall point. I think the tide has changed (at least in the USA) quite dramatically over the last twenty years. I've been in large chain bookstores all over the United States, and I'm amazed by the amount of Roman Catholic books in the Christianity / Religion section. They may not yet outnumber Protestant- generated books, but there sure are plenty of them. In some instances, the majority of Protestant books are more-or-less the T.D. Jakes-Joyce Myer-Joel Osteen fluff materials, while the Roman Catholic books have a bit more meat to them (there's usually plenty of Ratzinger books to be found). Of course, this is a broad generalization. It's much easier to find an intelligent Roman Catholic publication than a Protestant intelligent publication. In terms of my own "people" for lack of a better word, I can usually count the number of Reformed authors books I find in the big chain bookstore on one hand. So, in terms of popular publishing, Roman Catholics have a competitive horse in the race. If they ever produce authors similar in charisma to (the heretic!) T.D. Jakes, they could take the lead. <br /><br /><i>However, fair is fair. Since you have provided a source, I can no longer accuse you of snarky behavior any longer in regards to that point.</i><br /><br />LOL. Perhaps you could mentor Mr. Bellisario as to demeanor. <br /><br /><i>I will withhold judgment as to whether I feel your source is flawed until I have read the book which I intend to do as quickly as I can locate one in a library.</i><br /><br />Please do get the book. Time allowing, we could read it together by chapter and dialog on it (though in January, my schedule goes absolutely insane). A large chunk of the book is dedicated to the actual argumentation produced by the early Roman Catholic polemicists. This actually interests me a bit more, and there are some rather shocking discoveries- how for instance, "faith alone" was not as hotly contested a point as papal authority.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85298946508103156152009-12-07T11:59:47.342-05:002009-12-07T11:59:47.342-05:00Thank you Mr. Swan for providing a citation for yo...<i>Thank you Mr. Swan for providing a citation for your thoughts. Snarky perhaps was not a good choice of words but I was taking umbrage at the thought that you were spinning the fact that Catholic apologetic efforts in the early portions of the Reformation tended to be more targeted to a different audience than their Protestant counterparts which I think has more to do with the matter than printers' greed. </i><br /><br />I always find it interesting the way we all read things in to each others' words. I would assume by "different audience" you mean the educated, or elite. Bagchi touches on this- the fact that some of the early Roman Catholic polemicists did not approve of Luther writing about his disputes with Rome via print available to the "common man": Murner "had consistently identified Luther's chief crime as the discussion of advanced theological matters before the simple folk" (p.208). Luther did though, write specifically in Latin at times as well. <br /><br />You would definitely enjoy Bagchi's book. It is a fascinating read for both Roman Catholic and Protestants. In fact, I'm thinking of going through it again. I find the entire pamphlet-book war between the early Protestants and Roman Catholics absolutely riveting. Similarly, Steven Ozment's books: Protestants: The Birth of a Revolution , and The Reformation in the Cities: The Appeal of Protestantism to Sixteenth-Century Germany and Switzerland are similarly fascinating reads that touch on the same subject, but not nearly as well as Bagchi's analysis. <br /><br /><i>I used the term snarky because of the overall tone of the point (calling apologetic literature propaganda) I thought you were making and because I felt that your point slighted Protestants of the time who I believed were more interested defending their newly minted religion with zeal and fervor as opposed to being motivated by monetary concerns over what books might sell.</i><br /><br />Both sides produced propaganda. Ozment does an adequate job with a good introduction to the pamphlet wars between RC's and Protestants. Even there though, the Protestants definitely had the upper hand... my guess would be that the overall tone of Western Europe was a bit fed up with the corruption of government and papacy. <br /><br />As to the sales of books, you probably know not much money (if any) was made by the authors. The printers though did cash in, and Protestant book were more likely to sell, so printers were more likely to print that which would generate income. I don't doubt the sincerity or convictions of either side of those who went through the effort to write and publish (unlike today). But, greed was greed back then as well. Printers saw where the $$ was. <br /><br /><i>That being said, there are several things that the selections you provided do not appear to address. the sources I have suggest that not as many Catholic works were published because they were geared toward different audiences than their Protestant counterparts.Given that Mr. Bagchi notes that Catholic works were written in Latin and the Protestant ones were largely written in the vernacular, I wonder if he had thought of that</i><br /><br />Addressed above. And, it's good you saw what Bagchi says in the text I quoted in this blog entry: "Defenses of the Roman Church were more likely to be in Latin and were often written in a heavy, "scholastic" style." Implied is the target audience indeed, and I'd have to search through Bagchi's book, but I do recall he went into this. If I recall, the idea was that at least some of the early Roman Catholic polemicists intended to keep the battle among theologians. <br /><br />-cont.-James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75403119243388905092009-12-07T01:33:26.285-05:002009-12-07T01:33:26.285-05:00Thank you Mr. Swan for providing a citation for yo...Thank you Mr. Swan for providing a citation for your thoughts. Snarky perhaps was not a good choice of words but I was taking umbrage at the thought that you were spinning the fact that Catholic apologetic efforts in the early portions of the Reformation tended to be more targeted to a different audience than their Protestant counterparts which I think has more to do with the matter than printers' greed. I used the term snarky because of the overall tone of the point (calling apologetic literature propaganda) I thought you were making and because I felt that your point slighted Protestants of the time who I believed were more interested defending their newly minted religion with zeal and fervor as opposed to being motivated by monetary concerns over what books might sell. <br /><br />That being said, there are several things that the selections you provided do not appear to address. the sources I have suggest that not as many Catholic works were published because they were geared toward different audiences than their Protestant counterparts. Given that Mr. Bagchi notes that Catholic works were written in Latin and the Protestant ones were largely written in the vernacular, I wonder if he had thought of that. I would also be interested to see what bearing he feels the issue of censorship by both Protestant and Catholic secular and religious authorities had on how many works were published. Ditto in regards to the fact that secular authorities licensed who could operate printing presses to prevent literature they disagreed with from being published and what bearing this would have had on the numbers of books published. <br /><br />Additionally, I would like to see what time period and geographical area his researches cover. Does his work cover the Counter Reformation? St. Francis de Sales' published writings were very well received in Le Chablais and elsewhere in the Calvinist portions of France and led to the reversion of tens of thousands back to the Catholic faith. Thus, there are examples of Catholic writings being very well received.<br /><br />However, fair is fair. Since you have provided a source, I can no longer accuse you of snarky behavior any longer in regards to that point. I will withhold judgment as to whether I feel your source is flawed until I have read the book which I intend to do as quickly as I can locate one in a library.<br /><br />God bless!Paul Hofferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182683665344747977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-76080308246886210082009-12-06T17:43:04.011-05:002009-12-06T17:43:04.011-05:00For what it's worth, I did a blog post a while...For what it's worth, <a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2265" rel="nofollow">I did a blog post a while back on Luther resources</a>. I probably could do a top 10 list on books to get, and books to avoid as well.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-68455096392486905012009-12-06T08:28:36.245-05:002009-12-06T08:28:36.245-05:00David Bagchi's book happens to be one of my fa...David Bagchi's book happens to be one of my favorite books on Reformation studies. If I had to make a top ten list, it would definitely be on it, near the top.<br /><br /><i> Please make the list for us - We all want to know the top ten books on Reformation studies that you would recommend! </i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-12003190124043408652009-12-06T07:01:01.257-05:002009-12-06T07:01:01.257-05:00Thanks James, very interesting!Thanks James, very interesting!Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.com