Friday, February 24, 2012

A Visit to Catholic Answers Forum Part #9

Apr 8, '11, 11:10 am
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Default Re: SPLIT: Catholics claim to be one and same church Christ founded. I utterly reject that claim on biblical and historical grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algo1 View Post
2 Tim. 3:17 That (in the sense of “in order that”) refers back to the preceding verse (v. 16), indicating the purpose of Scripture for the believer. man of God.
Clearly, you didn't read By What Authority?
Moses - "This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death." (Deut. 33:1)

"Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, 'You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.'" (Josh. 14:6)

The Angel of the Lord - "Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name...' Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.'" (Jud. 13:6, 8)

Samuel - "The servant answered Saul again, 'Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.'" (1 Sam. 9:8)

Elijah - "And she said to Elijah, 'What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!'" (1 Kings 17:18)

Elisha - "And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out... When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed." (2 Kings 4:21, 32)

David - "According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded." (2 Chr. 8:14)

St. Timothy - "But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness." (1 Tim. 6:11)

Contrary to the opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the "man of God" is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).
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Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!

Apr 8, '11, 11:13 am
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Join Date: June 23, 2004
Posts: 2,286
Default Re: SPLIT: Catholics claim to be one and same church Christ founded. I utterly reject that claim on biblical and historical grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algo1 View Post
1 Tim. 6:11–12 The reference to Timothy as a man of God affirms his authority and stands in contrast with the false teachers, who are not men of God. “Man of God” is used often in the OT of a prophet (e.g., Deut. 33:1; 1 Sam. 9:6; Ps. 90:1). The call to fight the good fight of the faith and to take hold of the eternal life involves both fleeing from sin and vigorously pursuing virtue (cf. note on 2 Tim. 2:22).
St. Timothy became a man of God via apostolic succession received from St. Paul: "Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands... guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Tim. 1:6, 14)

When St. Paul imposed his hands on St. Timothy, he passed on a legitimate apostolic authority, "entrusted" the "truth" to him, and imparted the gift of "the Holy Spirit" for the safekeeping and preservation of the Gospel.
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Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!
Apr 8, '11, 11:59 am
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Default Re: SPLIT: Catholics claim to be one and same church Christ founded. I utterly reject that claim on biblical and historical grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Clearly, you didn't read By What Authority?
Moses - "This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death." (Deut. 33:1)

"Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, 'You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.'" (Josh. 14:6)

The Angel of the Lord - "Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name...' Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.'" (Jud. 13:6, 8)

Samuel - "The servant answered Saul again, 'Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.'" (1 Sam. 9:8)

Elijah - "And she said to Elijah, 'What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!'" (1 Kings 17:18)

Elisha - "And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out... When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed." (2 Kings 4:21, 32)

David - "According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded." (2 Chr. 8:14)

St. Timothy - "But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness." (1 Tim. 6:11)

Contrary to the opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the "man of God" is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).
Erich,
Is that the "Official" interpretation of that passage or is that your interpretation as a "Private Theologian"?
If "Official", is it "Historic"?
Does it exclude "Laity" as recipients of Paul's exhortation?

Apr 8, '11, 3:40 pm
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Join Date: June 23, 2004
Posts: 2,286
Default Re: SPLIT: Catholics claim to be one and same church Christ founded. I utterly reject that claim on biblical and historical grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algo1 View Post
Is that the "Official" interpretation of that passage or is that your interpretation as a "Private Theologian"?
While I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I'm not a bishop, so anything I say is certainly not "Official."

That said, I'm willing to bet that the referenced link would have no problem getting a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur if the writer chose to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algo1 View Post
If "Official", is it "Historic"?
It's certainly "Historic." There are 4 generations of apostolic succession in Scripture: "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2) -- (1) Paul, (2) Timothy, (3) the men that Timothy will entrust the Gospel message to, and (4) the men that they will entrust.

One witness to the structure of the early Church is St. Ignatius of Antioch, whose seven authentic letters are dated no later than A.D. 117 or 118, so he must have known some of the apostles themselves, as Antioch was a center of missionary activity frequented by Paul in Acts 11:26–30 and 13:1–3. Ignatius says, "It is fitting in every way . . . that you be knit together in a unified submission, subject to the bishop and presbytery that you may be completely sanctified" (Letter to Ephesians 2:2). Again he says of the Church, "Jesus Christ . . . is the will of the Father, just as the bishops, who are appointed in every land, are the will of Jesus Christ. So it is proper for you to be in harmony with the will of the bishop" (ibid., 3:2–4:1). He also wrote, "It is clear that one should see the bishop as the Lord himself" (ibid., 6:1). These quotes show first that Ignatius considered the bishops of the Church to be the "will of God" (i.e., their office was appointed by God) and second that obedience to the bishop was considered obedience to God himself. In some sense, the bishop represented God in the same way that the apostles did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algo1 View Post
Does it exclude "Laity" as recipients of Paul's exhortation?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by By What Authority?
Scripture shows that only the Apostles are "entrusted" with the care of the Gospel message:
• St. Paul
"...they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised."(Gal. 2:7)

"...in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

"...in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted." (1 Tim. 1:11)

• St. Timothy
"Paul, Silvanus [Silas], and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians... we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel." (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:4)

"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you." (1 Tim. 6:20)

"...guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Tim. 1:14)

Scripture also testifies that only apostles are given full authority. Compare what is said of St. Paul and St. Timothy (both of whom are explicitly called "apostles") with what is said of St. Titus:

St. Paul - "...nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ." (1 Thess. 2:6)

St. Timothy - "As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine..." (1 Tim. 1:3)

"Command and teach these things." (1 Tim. 4:11)

"Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers." (2 Tim. 2:14)

St. Titus - "This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you." (Tit.1:5)

"Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you." (Tit. 2:15)

"...our boasting before Titus has proved true. And his heart goes out all the more to you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, and the fear and trembling with which you received him." (2 Cor. 7:14-15)

Scripture also shows that only the Apostles refer to the Gospel message as their own personal possession:
"...when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Rom. 2:16)

"Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ..." (Rom. 16:25)

"Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descended from David, as preached in my gospel." (2 Tim. 2:8)

"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians... for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess. 1:1 & 5)

"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians... God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel..." (2 Thess. 1:1 & 2:13-14)

The Apostles possess the Gospel message precisely because it was (as the above passages demonstrated) "entrusted" to them, i.e., given to them, and not taken by them on their own initiative.
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Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!

Apr 8, '11, 4:43 pm
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Default Re: SPLIT: Catholics claim to be one and same church Christ founded. I utterly reject that claim on biblical and historical grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
While I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I'm not a bishop, so anything I say is certainly not "Official."

That said, I'm willing to bet that the referenced link would have no problem getting a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur if the writer chose to do so.



It's certainly "Historic." There are 4 generations of apostolic succession in Scripture: "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2) -- (1) Paul, (2) Timothy, (3) the men that Timothy will entrust the Gospel message to, and (4) the men that they will entrust.

One witness to the structure of the early Church is St. Ignatius of Antioch, whose seven authentic letters are dated no later than A.D. 117 or 118, so he must have known...bishop" (ibid., 3:2–4:1). He also wrote, "It is clear that one should see the bishop as the Lord himself" (ibid., 6:1). These quotes show first that Ignatius considered the bishops of the Church to be the "will of God" (i.e., their office was appointed by God) and second that obedience to the bishop was considered obedience to God himself. In some sense, the bishop represented God in the same way that the apostles did.



Yes.
Erich,
I read Mr. Michael's article.
Maybe you can read a portion of John Chrysostom's sermon in which he exegetes that passage.

Chrysostom (349-407): How comes it that not merely among ourselves, but also among Jews and Greeks, he [i. e. Paul] is the wonder of wonders? Is it not from the power of his epistles? whereby not only to the faithful of today, but from his time to this, yea and up to the end, even the appearing of Christ, he has been and will be profitable, and will continue to be so as long as the human race shall last. For as a wall built of adamant, so his writings fortify all the Churches of the known world, and he as a most noble champion stands in the midst, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ, casting down imaginations, and every high thing which exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and all this he does by those epistles which he has left to us full of wonders and of Divine wisdom. For his writings are not only useful to us, for the overthrow of false doctrine and the confirmation of the true, but they help not a little towards living a good life. . . .
8. Hear also what he says in his charge to his disciple: “Give heed to reading, to exhortation, to teaching,” and he goes on to show the usefulness of this by adding, “For in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee.” And again he says, “The Lord’s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing;” and he proceeds to say, “But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned, and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them, and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation,” and again, “Every Scripture is inspired of God, and also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete.” Hear what he adds further in his directions to Titus about the appointment of bishops. “The bishop,” he says, “must be holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to convict the gain-sayers.” But how shall any one who is unskillful as these men pretend, be able to convict the gainsayers and stop their mouths? or what need is there to give attention to reading and to the Holy Scriptures, if such a state of unskillfulness is to be welcome among us? Such arguments are mere makeshifts and pretexts, the marks of idleness and sloth. But some one will say, “it is to the priests that these charges are given:” — certainly, for they are the subjects of our discourse. But that the apostle gives the same charge to the laity, hear what he says in another epistle to other than the priesthood: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom,” and again, “Let your speech be always with grace seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer each one,” and there is a general charge to all that they “be ready to” render an account of their faith, and to the Thessalonians, he gives the following command: “Build each other up, even as also ye do.” But when he speaks of priests he says, “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word, and in teaching.” For this is the perfection of teaching when the teachers both by what they do, and by what they say as well, bring their disciples to that blessed state of life which Christ appointed for them. For example alone is not enough to instruct others. Nor do I say this of myself; it is our Savior’s own word. “For whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great. Now if doing were the same as teaching, the second word here would be superfluous; and it had been enough to have said “whosoever shall do” simply. But now by distinguishing the two, he shows that practice is one thing, and doctrine another, and that each needs the help of the others in order to complete edification. Thou hearest too what the chosen vessel of Christ says to the Ephesian elders: “Wherefore watch ye, remembering that for the space of three years, I ceased not to admonish every one, night and day, with tears.” NPNF1: Vol. IX, The Christian Priesthood, Book 4, §7-8.

5 comments:

EBW said...

I'm no official, so I will place my bet on the supreme official, who is the man of God, and has the office to interpret the scripture as pertaining only to the official.
Round and round we go where we stop the Bishop of Rome knows.

...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock: and from among your own selves men will rise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. Acts 20:29,30

How can they have no certainty of the passage allegedly defending their position, while having certainty they are avoiding wolves ?

Eric

Algo said...

Good point Eric.

James Swan said...

Gotta love Chrysostom :)

John Bugay said...

How can they have no certainty of the passage allegedly defending their position, while having certainty they are avoiding wolves ?

The gates of hell will never prevail!

Lvka said...

Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!


In my opinion, he automatically won the argument just by having this witty saying as a motto -- but I'm not infallible, so what do I know? :-)