Tuesday, June 01, 2010

Marian Apparitions

I haven't had a chance to listen to this yet- Chris Arnzen interviewed Andrew Mayfield on the subject of Marian Apparitions on the Iron Sharpens Iron program. The mp3 can be found here. I don't know anything about Mr. Mayfield, but Chris usually puts forth a good interview. Considering how many people think Mary is appearing, this topic is quite relevant.


Gojira said...

That should be interesting.

By the way, the photo you have up is from an apparition that happened in Egypt at a Coptic church. I have a friend at work whose dad was there at that particular "apparition"

Andrew said...

Thank you for posting this interview. You can find the paper that was referenced in the interview at http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/sorted/08_Sponsored_Articles/The_Marian_Apparitions.pdf

Thank you - andrew mayfield

EA said...

Of course Mary would take the form of a Marian statue - how life-like!

miraclehunter said...

Andrew Mayfield is quoting from some apparitions that aren't even approved by the Roman Catholic Church. He quotes from Garabandal, the alleged Spanish apparition from the 1960s. The Catholic Church has said over and over again that there was no proof of anything supernatural happening there:


He also quotes from a legendary apparition of Mary to St Dominic in 1208. There is no historical record for the exact words of this apparition.

He also quotes from Our Lady of America alleged apparition (Fostoria, OH 1956) which has never been deemed to be supernatural by the Catholic Church.

He also mentions Medjugorje which in 1991 the Bishops' commission said that there was no proof of anything supernatural.

Why not do a little more research and quote and comment on the apparition messages that the Catholic Church has actually approved?

Andrew said...

To Miracle Hunter - thank you for you comments. Can I encourage you to read Dr. Kelly Bowrings book. This book is granted the imprimatur from the Roman Catholic Church and is authorized with an "official declaration from the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church stating that a literary or similar work is free from error in matters of Roman Catholic doctrine, and hence acceptable reading for faithful Roman Catholics."
Every one of the apparitions and quotes referenced in the paper and footnoted to numerous RCC web sites were also quoted in his book. The book was declared the "The Book of the Year" and has been promoted by video and PR. If you want to limit the discussion to the "approved" apparitions, I am glad to do that. The Apparitions of Fatima are more than enough to reveal the supremecy of this spirit mary and the insufficiency of the "Jesus" worshipped in the Roman Catholic Mass.

Thanks again for your input and effort to be consistent with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I know this must be an enormously difficult challenge for your faith and the doctrine they teach.

Andrew said...

To Miracle Hunter. Again, in the interest of being open to the comments of the Miracle Hunter Post. Although he/she claims the Saint Dominic message has no authenticity, I found 98 Catholic web sites that use this exact quote as an active and important message from their spirit of Mary "One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, I will save the World" Most notably, this one: catholicism.org/rosary-history.html.

Regarding the Medjugorje apparitions, this was copied from his/her very own site (Miracle Hunter) "Vatican City, Mar 6, 2010 (CNA).- The Italian media is reporting that Pope Benedict XVI authorized an official inquiry into the Marian apparitions at Medjugorje." Of course the reference he/she used to disregard the posted paper was documented in 1996.

SO - I hope those observing this dialogue understand just how many ways there are in the catholic system to defend whatever position one might want to take, in most case on both sides of any search for the truth, or any means by which the deception could continue.

Thank you again for your advice Mr./Ms. Miracle Hunter. A parting thought for the evagelical bible believer, this again is one of the key quotes from Mary at Fatima which is not only approved, but shamelessly used to lead many away from the all sufficient Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: "I have need of souls and of priests who serve me by sacrificing themselves for me and for souls." and "…many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them." I again ask the discerning reader, what did the Lord Jesus Christ complete, once for all, on the cross of Calvary? And how could anyone, or any spirit, add anything to this perfect, sufficient sacrifice completed upon His cross? Shameful deception is all this is, and it is for those who do not believe the truth, as God has given them over to strong delusion, so that they would believe the lie. May He have mercy on those deceived.

Andrew said...

One more tiny piece of research I found from the site of Dr. Mark Miravalle who is arguably on eof the foremost experts in this area of catholic appairions from Mary - which reenforces that even if they aren't "approved apparitions" as our Miracle Hunter so kindly pointed out, the leadership and theologians of the RCC can certainly still continue to exploit them, sell them, and deceive their own with them:

Introduction to Medjugorje
Dr. Mark Miravalle
Queenship, 2004
272 pp.
ISBN: 1-57918-265-8

The focus of this book is the “message” of Medjugorje. The reader will gather a profound understanding of the messages and meaning of the events happening in Medjugorje over the past twenty-four years. It contains backgound and the early messages, conversation with the visionaries, as well as the Thursday and Monthly messages through July 2004.

Dr. Mark Miravalle has been teaching at the Franciscan University of Steubenville for more than eighteen years and is the author of many other Marian works.

miraclehunter said...

Dear Andrew,

Please accept my apology for not being more prompt in my response to your posts from last month. Thank for you the book recommendation as well - I will certainly read it - but without having done so currently I cannot know or comment on in what format or classification those apparitions and messages are presented.

Thank you for your detailed response to my challenge to only use approved Marian apparitions in this discussion. Certainly it is easy to agree that just because many people post and re-post apparition messages (or write books as in the case of Dr. Mark Miravalle) of unapproved or legendary apparitions that doesn't establish it as official Catholic Church teaching. In 1966, for better or worse, Pope Paul VI lifted the ban on the publication of unapproved apparition messages (coupled with the modern proliferation of material on the internet) so we have a great many things that are in circulation that are questionable. The problem, as you point out, this is a sign that there are far too many Catholics who are over zealous in their interest in apparitions and it detracts from their keeping of Christ in His person, words, and works as found in Sacred Scripture from being the centrality of their faith. The Catholic Church has NEVER taught that apparitions or other mystical phenomena should be a substitute for faith in Christ and has always asserted that belief in private revelations is completely OPTIONAL. The role of authentic apparitions is that they provide a special support or insight at a specific time and place in world history. Pope Benedict XVI has said that Mary's purpose in appearing "is, through these simple ones, to call the world back to simplicity, that is, to the essentials: conversion, prayer, and the sacraments."

Pope John Paul II, in his document The Coming Third Millennium reaffirms the role of proper veneration of Mary: "Veneration of Mary, when properly understood, can in no way take away from the 'dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.' Mary in fact constantly points to her Divine Son and she is proposed to all believers as the model of faith which is put into practice”

It is also important to keep in mind that the Catholic Church does not gleefully seek out these alleged visions and push them on its members so that they can worship Mary. I would venture to say the unspoken role of these investigations is to prove the allegations false - there have been over 500 apparition claims in the 20th century alone and only four (Fatima,Portugal, Beauraing, Belgium, Banneux, Belgium and Kibeho, Rwanda) enjoy full Church approval. If anything, the Church seeks to provide pastoral guidance on these matters where there is an upswell of popular support and make sure that people are grounded in their faith in Christ.

With regards to the discussion of the perfect sacrifice of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I believe we are encountering the traditional differences in belief between Catholics and Protestants when it comes to Mary, the saints, and others acting as intercessors and the question of whether we as Christians actively unite ourselves to Christ and participate in his Redemption. The Catholic apparitions appropriately and simply fall in line with the Catholic understanding and teaching on these matters. So truly the debate should focus on these essential matters of the faith and not on the apparitions themselves since it only makes sense that the apparitions espoused by the Catholic Church should follow Catholic theology.

miraclehunter said...
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