Friday, June 11, 2010

It's still in today's news

Pope Seeks Forgiveness Over Abuse
VATICAN CITY—Pope Benedict XVI on Friday asked for forgiveness from God and from victims of sex abuse, pledging to do "everything possible" to prevent future abuse.

Speaking at a Mass marking the close of an international conference of priests, the pope said the Catholic Church had to do a better job of vetting candidates for the priesthood. He also dropped his practice of referring to abuse indirectly when speaking publicly about the crisis.

"The sins of priests came to light—particularly the abuse of the little ones," the pope said. "We, too, insistently beg forgiveness from God and from the persons involved, while promising to do everything possible to ensure that such abuse will never occur again."

The remarks stopped short, however, of the personal apology that victims' groups had expected the pope to issue in response to criticism of his handling of sex-abuse cases in Germany and as head of the Vatican's disciplinary office. Nor did Pope Benedict address what many victims say allowed the scandal to fester: The church hierarchy's decades-long practice of covering up abuse.

"The Pope still ignores the crux of the crisis—the ongoing recklessness, deceit and callousness of bishops who, even now, protect predators instead of children," said Barbara Blaine, president of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests.

After the crisis exploded this year, the Vatican initially described it as a campaign whipped up by the media. Over time, the Vatican has recognized that the church is to blame for not stopping the abuse sooner.

So ... "Over time, the Vatican has recognized that the church is to blame for not stopping the abuse sooner." I wonder what the reporter meant by this, and who precisely is being quoted here.

You know, in confession, you must confess everything, or it's not absolved. What, exactly, does Benedict think he is "apologizing" for? It's all so vague. It's back to "we're sorry for the sins of the sins of the children of the Church."

There's either an incredible double standard going on, or they're just not understanding this horrific crime that's being perpetrated by "bishops who, even now, protect predators instead of children."

"The pedophilia scandal has shocked us deeply, it's not easy," said Baptiste Loevenbruck, a 26-year-old candidate for the priesthood who traveled to the Vatican from France to attend the closing ceremonies with the pope. "What is most difficult is to know that priests themselves have persecuted the Church," he said.

Oh, the poor Church, the poor, poor Church.

33 comments:

steve said...

In Catholicism, confession is good for the soul–unless you yourself commit crimes, or your subordinates commit crimes under your watch, in which case you confess on behalf of everyone except yourself or the institution you represent.

John Bugay said...

Infallibility has its privileges!

Matthew Bellisario said...

Too bad there is a higher percentage rate of this type abuse among the Protestant sects Clean up your own house and repent before you go pointing fingers at others.

John Bugay said...

You still don't get it:

1. Do something other than assert a "higher percentage"

2. Note that the subject matter of the article involved a whole layer of non-accountability that Protestants don't have: "The Pope still ignores the crux of the crisis—the ongoing recklessness, deceit and callousness of bishops who, even now, protect predators instead of children,"

Why do you keep missing that? Are you dense? Are you in denial? What is it?

Say something about the bishops, for crying out loud.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Say something about your sick Prot pastors abusing little kids. Keep attacking everyone else, that will fix all of your problems.

John Bugay said...

Matthew Bellisario -- It's horrific any time a child is abused.

But when a Protestant does something like that, and is reported, he stands trial and (if guilty) goes to jail. That's how the law is supposed to work.

When Catholic Priests abused children, their bishops would protect them -- transfer them to places where they could do it again. They skirt the law. They flaunt the law.

It's the issue of the "grease-the-skids" bishops that has never been addressed. Cardinal Law, who is responsible for huge numbers of repeat incidents, is living high off the hog on your Church's dime, away from where the authorities can bring him to trial.

And this goes all the way to the top. It is the Vatican protecting him. That's why this story doesn't go away.

Turretinfan said...

Bellisario wrote: "Too bad there is a higher percentage rate of this type abuse among the Protestant sects Clean up your own house and repent before you go pointing fingers at others."

I suspect Bellisario is just making up this "percentage" claim - i.e. lying.

Bellisario continued: "Say something about your sick Prot pastors abusing little kids. Keep attacking everyone else, that will fix all of your problems."

a) Notice how desperately Bellisario wishes to distract from the abuse that Rome has fostered for so many years.

b) Protestant pastors who are caught abusing kids are normally handed over to the police and removed from the church - not transferred to another parish while keeping their abuse secret.

And besides, "Protestant" is such a vast category that includes plenty of groups who have no love of the Gospel.

-TurretinFan

EA said...

"Too bad there is a higher percentage rate of this type abuse among the Protestant sects Clean up your own house and repent before you go pointing fingers at others."

Matthew,

The RCC makes alot of claims about itself. When that criteria (the one set forth by the RCC) is found to be false, the supporters of the RCC claim that "Protestants" are just as bad.

Hand over Cardinal Law and the priests accused of pedophilia then some of what you claim may seem credible.

You care more for the protection of pedophile priests than you do for their victims. The reason I know this is that you pay lip service to the victims while aggressively defending their abusers.

SHAME ON YOU!!!!

Matthew Bellisario said...

You are the sick individuals always lying to cover up your own mess. Do you actually think that there are Protestants who have not been prosecuted for doing the exact same thing? You sick bunch of hypocrites always pointing at the speck in your brother's eye while the plank is stuck your own! How about this recent story from Germany? Too bad you sick people over here are more interested in attacking someone else rather than cleaning up your own sick "church", where you all agree on the "essentials" that you have no idea as to what any of them are. I think we can name one essential of the Protestant faith; attack the Catholic Church and deny anything is wrong with your own.

'The Evangelical Church in the Rhineland, the second largest Protestant Church in Germany, is the latest church body to apologize to victims of sexual abuse in their institutions.

The vice-president of the church, Petra Bosse-Huber, said on March 22 in Duesseldorf, "We are ashamed and upset that such infringements apparently also happened in our church and in our social welfare department. We ask the victims for forgiveness.

In the Protestant announcement, Bosse-Huber said that nine men and women have reported incidents of sexual abuse and physical violence that occurred in institutions of the Protestant church, some of them decades ago. "We take these accounts very seriously," Bosse-Huber said in a statement.

Many of the cases are now crimes that can no longer be prosecuted, but Bosse-Huber insisted that her church is interested in getting to the bottom of the accusations. "We are investigating the accusations of sexual assault and abuse just as much as the suspicion of a cover-up," said Bosse-Huber."

Pin that story on your blog and denounce your Prot brothers, apologize for singling out Catholics, and demand that all of your Prot abusers all be removed and prosecuted for their heinous cover ups!

John Bugay said...

I checked that story:

In the Protestant announcement, Bosse-Huber said that nine men and women have reported incidents of sexual abuse and physical violence that occurred in institutions of the Protestant church, some of them decades ago. "We take these accounts very seriously," Bosse-Huber said in a statement.

So, I am in agreement with you, these nine cases are very bad, just like the many thousands of cases perpetrated by Catholic priests.

If anyone was involved in coverups, they should be investigated too. How about it?

Let's start at the top. Let's petition the Vatican to release Cardinal Law!

John Bugay said...

This is worse than we were led to believe. From the same article:

The Munich archdiocese has received about 120 complaints of physical and sexual abuse, with new reports coming in daily, said Elke Huemmeler, the head of its new sexual abuse prevention task force. "It is like a tsunami," she told Associated Press on March 19.

http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8367

Hmmm... Where do we put our resources ... nine cases "decades ago..." or "120 cases" currently coming "like a tsunami"?

Turretinfan said...

I see that my suspicion is confirmed. Bellisario can offer only anecdotal evidence of "protestant" abuse.

He should be ashamed of himself. While his church continues to support Cardinal Law, the Germans he's throwing stones at are making amends.

Turretinfan said...

He also includes allegations that we are "sick" for being disgusted by his church and her history of sexual abuse. I wonder how "sick" we would be considered if the sin were abortion? Of course, most of Rome's sexual abuse doesn't lead to abortions, because it is homosexual.

(Shocking, I know. Who would think a bunch of guys who have bonded themselves from entering into marriage ...)

Still, if it were the case that Rome's sexual abusers were mostly heterosexual and used abortion to conceal their crimes, would Bellisario call us "sick" for being disgusted by that?

-TurretinFan

John Bugay said...

Hi TF -- I just suspect he's in a very deep funk over, not only this issue (in which Ratzinger/Benedict is personally involved and culpable). He also hasn't been back around defending the early papacy. I suspect he's not having much luck finding even Catholic sources that don't say what I've been saying.

On the abuse matter, on his own blog, he did cite Philip Jenkins's 2001 work (and I trust Jenkins to some degree) for some statistics. But he doesn't say where those statistics come from. And just from the timing, it's clear that Jenkins missed the "tsunami" of current abuse cases that are coming out all around the world.

Turretinfan said...

Actually, at "the Catholic Champion," Bellisario is just plagiarizing the Catholic League report that I already debunked link.

Alexander said...

Have you commented at all on the abuse cases found in Protestantism? Nope. It seems that in your grand zeal to attack Roman Catholicism you give sexual abuse in the protestant churches an outright pass or a glancing nod followed up with a "well, we're not as bad." I'm sure if it were you or one of your kids getting abused then you wouldn't say, "Oh well, we all know that those Romanists are worse!"

Is it really that hard to be intellectually honest?

I would think that you would want to clean house as much as possible. Or does it take one of these molesting pastors or church volunteers backing out of a debate to peek your interest?

in which Ratzinger/Benedict is personally involved and culpable

Listen up Geraldo. I know you must feel that you have missed your calling as an extra on C.H.I.P.S., but in the real world you have no credible evidence linking Pope Benedict to the scandal. If you think you do, then let's see what your investigative work can prove already Mr. Stossel.

Turretinfan, following your logic, if dedicating myself to celibacy would somehow cause me to turn an attraction for women into a disordered attraction for men or young boys, shouldn't we have a greater concern for those men who are just too ugly for any woman to take interest in them?

I'm also interested in seeing if Jim Croce agrees with you.

John Bugay said...

Have you commented at all on the abuse cases found in Protestantism? Nope.

Mostly because in Protestantism, it's a bunch of isolated cases. For your reading pleasure, though, if you go to the official SNAP website (Survivor Network for those Abused by Priest), you'll find links commenting on various abuses in other places, including Baptists and Presbyterians:

http://www.snapnetwork.org/

While you're there, given your concern, you may want to make a donation on-line. They are certified by the Independent Charities of America as one of the "Best in America".


But the main thing is, the reason why there is so much focus on this thing in Catholicism, is because for decades (and maybe centuries) there was a cover-up that was the result of an official policy, signed into law by a pope.

Check this out:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/timeline.htm

You may be familiar with the official "Instruction on the manner of proceeding in cases of Solicitation," issued "From the Supreme and Holy Congregation of the Holy Office" (and approved by Pope John XXIII in 1962).

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/churchdocs/CrimenEnglish.pdf


Admittedly, the document calls "solicitation" an "unspeakable crime." But the thing to note is how extraordinarily well-thought-out this procedure is. It's as if they'd come across this thing one or two times in the past.



in the real world you have no credible evidence linking Pope Benedict to the scandal.

We also have no credible evidence that he, or the Church, is being totally forthright and cooperative with the authorities who are investigating these things.

One of the reasons (another one) that this continues to be front page news is because of recently, uh, uncovered scandals that previously had been, uh, hidden, in places like Ireland and Germany.

Without folks like Geraldo and Stossel (and their real-life counterparts), all of this could have gone on being the Catholic Church's dirty little secret for a long time to come.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Bugay says the reason they don't worry about and report on Protestant abuse is, "Mostly because in Protestantism, it's a bunch of isolated cases."

So that makes it OK right? You can shoot your mouth off and attack the Catholic Church, yet you have a "bunch" of isolated cases, at higher rates as a whole in your own "churches", and that is OK? I guess that is one convenience of having the disunity that you have in your Protestant fabrication. When it is convenient, as in the abuse cases, you say this or that group is not really faithful to Protestantism, yet when someone brings up the fact that none of you can agree on anything doctrinal, then you fall back on the illusion of the essentials argument. Which is it going to be?

The fact is, when your fellow Protesters abuse kids its OK, because according to you its just a bunch of isolated cases, yet when you can use the same exact issue to attack the Catholic Church with, then its OK. As you can see, there are Protesters covering up their abuse cases to, or do you also think that is isolated as well? You people are not honest, and we can see that by how you behave.

John Bugay said...

No it doesn't make it ok. There are a bunch of isolated murders in America, too. And as bad as it is, it doesn't add up the the Nazi Holocaust of WWII. The point is, as you keep missing it, is the conspiracy layer, the cover-up layer, perpetrated by none other than the infallible Magisterium to whom you've seemingly sworn allegiance.

And further, it is this infallible Magisterium that for centuries, claimed to be THE Church of Christ, the Church that Christ founded.

Does it bother you that, while you're harping on me for saying it's ok for Protestants to abuse kids, you yourself are excusing the whole sordid and reprehensible conspiracy effort not only for priests to abuse kids, but then for the church to cover it up.

There are a million reasons or more to reject this "Church" and its supposedly "infallible" teaching, and this is just one more of them.

Turretinfan said...

"Turretinfan, following your logic, if dedicating myself to celibacy would somehow cause me to turn an attraction for women into a disordered attraction for men or young boys, shouldn't we have a greater concern for those men who are just too ugly for any woman to take interest in them?"

Wow, Alexander. That sounds nothing like my argument. Where did you get it from?

Turretinfan said...

"So that makes it OK right?"

Wrong.

Did Bugay ever say it was ok? Why are you putting words in his mouth? What's your agenda here, Bellisario?

Are you just trying to distract folks from the fact that your church continues to support evil men like Cardinal Law?

Alexander said...

That is the reason why I'm asking Turretinfan. Vowing celibacy is really incidental to being an abuser. Perhaps you and Ned Flanders here might have seen To Catch a Predator. Abusers come in all forms of life. What seems to be key is access and trust. Positions of authority in trusted environments work.

The point you and John Bolton keep ignoring is that there is complete silence on your end regarding abuses in your own churches. So the fact that remains is that this is being used as an apologetic--and a horrible one at that. Notice G. Gordon Liddy attempting to somehow tie this in with infallibility???

There are a million reasons or more to reject this "Church" and its supposedly "infallible" teaching, and this is just one more of them.

How in the world does this tie into infallibility? You can start with explaining to us what the criteria of infallibility are. Furthermore, you can just come out of the closet yourself with the reasons why you discuss these abuse cases and not those in Protestantism because it is not the abuse in itself you care about, but it just seems like another good apologetic tatic.

Alexander said...

Our church Turretinfan? Do you know what comprises our church? So I guess whenever individual X, or individuals X, Y and Z do anything, then it is our "church" who is doing it.

John Bugay said...

You seem to want to say, "The infallible Magisterium is only gifted to make infallible doctrine; But other than that, they are sinful humans, and anything else they do has no bearing on that.

Consider the pro-choice politician -- "I'm personally opposed to abortion, but I think we should still pass pro-choice laws." You would not accept that form of dichotomy from a politician. But it's the exact thing we are saying with regard to the Magisterium.

We are saying, "there is no 'charism' that enables the Magisterium to be infallible -- especially not in the light of its stated policy to cover-up and hide these incidents from the view of the public and from the view of the secular authorities (Romans 13:1).

The tree is known by its fruit.

Turretinfan said...

"Vowing celibacy is really incidental to being an abuser."

So you claim. The stats don't back you up. Intuition doesn't back you up. But you're free to have an opinion!

"The point you and John Bolton keep ignoring is that there is complete silence on your end regarding abuses in your own churches."

We're not ignoring your point, we're telling you that you have yet to substantiate that point.

Bellisario's one attempt (based on plagiarizing the Catholic League report) has been amply rebutted.

"Our church Turretinfan? Do you know what comprises our church?"

Is the pope, Catholic?

-TurretinFan

Alexander said...

So you claim. The stats don't back you up. Intuition doesn't back you up. But you're free to have an opinion!

Oh, those stats...that's right. What are they again? So I guess that we shouldn't find married men engaging in the same behavior, right?

Turretinfan said...

Alexander:

Again, that's not my argument.

-TurretinFan

Alexander said...

Turretinfan I don't see your argument here, so stating, "Again, that's not my argument" doesn't really say much.

I'll stand by my position that there is no causal relationship between celibacy and pedophilia, or celibacy and homosexuality, anymore than there is between matrimony and pedophilia or homosexuality. You can either agree or disagree. If you believe that there is a causal relationship, then the burden is upon you to establish that relationship.

Turretinfan said...

I can just leave you to your argument, which really has nothing to do with mine.

Alexander said...

What argument Turretinfan?

You didn't make one. You just said, "Shocking, I know. Who would think a bunch of guys who have bonded themselves from entering into marriage...", and connected this to homosexuality. So what argument did you make? Maybe you made one up in your head, but you certainly didn't state it here.

Again: "You can either agree or disagree. If you believe that there is a causal relationship, then the burden is upon you to establish that relationship."

Alexander said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Turretinfan said...

Alexander:

I see you are still swimming in circles over there, rather than disputing anything I said. I hope you're enjoying the swim!

-TurretinFan

Alexander said...

I guess you agree with me then. Thanks