Friday, October 05, 2007

For Algo: Surprised By Truth #15



Here's one for Surprised By Truth #15. Algo in the Prosapologian chat channel reminded of this interesting Roman Catholic conversion story from April 2007.

People swim the Tiber for all sorts of reasons. This time the swim began because free tapes weren't given out.

A little background: I had stopped by the Catholic Answers forums, and I was dialoging about the Apocrypha. Enjoy this interesting conversion story, that was posted in response to my comments on the Apocrypha:

Ah are you the same James Swan who works for James White?The Same James Swan who when would not offer me even one apolgetic tape at a reduced price when I was exploring Christianity when I was having financial difficulties? You thumbed your nose at my propistion at the time Even though I promised to pay you latter?

Well thanks to your greed and James White and the generosity of the Bible Christian Society who offered a lot of materails for nothing I am a catholic who happens to be debating your false claims again and again. Well things are beter now and I paid the Bible Christian Society latter, the same propisition you turned down. Well I know you and your organization for what you are greed and false witness. Thank God for John Martgnoni whose was far more interested in my salvation than making a buck. I am sure your deny this as you deny other truths but its a true story.

There are other protestants that are not hack apolgist like James WHite and WIlliam Webster and yourself. So why would we waste our money on your biased observations? There are more objective protestant sources to go to. ANd besides you were very rude and crude to a a spritual seeker when he was a little light in the wallet.

It seems you were only interested in sharing your faith when it didn't cost you anything? Again you could not spare one tape?

And your post of your debates here in catholic answers that are taken out of context and selectively without our full responses and explanations are another chance of cheap shot tactics. I challenge all seekers to do what I did ask for tapes from the Bible Christian Society for virtually nothing and study what John has to say.

My response:

For the first time since I've been on the boards, I came very close to using the alert feature and reporting Wisdom's last post. Perhaps though, we can avoid such silliness.

I contribute articles for James White's aomin.blog, but I am not employed by Dr. White. I'm not sure who you are confusing me with.

To my knowledge, I have never spoken to you before, unless it was here via these Catholic Answers discussion boards (which I have visited off and on for a few years). I can assure you, I have nothing to do with selling tapes, books, or whatever. I live hundreds of miles away from Alpha and Omega Ministries. I would need a plane to get there and answer the phone.

That being said, much of the same material found in either Dr. White's books or tapes can be found for free on his website.

I find it hard to fathom that discount tapes or books are a factor in conversion, but I guess it's possible. The Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons often give out free material, and people do convert to these cults. I would much rather study the Bible, the very word of God, and follow it, rather than tapes, books, or materials put out by a particular organization.

Simply because discount tapes are not provided does not mean a particular organization is comprised of "hack apologists". Dr. White and William Webster are Godly men who do very good work. On the other hand, I would be careful placing your faith in any fallible human or apologist. If I were you, I'd simply study the Bible and history, and evaluate all arguments and facts put forth by everybody. This way, we could actually rationally discuss Ximenes, Archbishop of Toledo.

Regards,James SwanBeggars All: Reformation and Apologetics

The counter-response:

You seem to be overly familiar with alpha and omega ministries and yes your entier diatribe here is from the James White playbook its as if I am speaking to James White assistant at Alpha and Omega Ministires. The infalliability of of WIlliam Webster and James White are your usual trump card along with posting info on your blog. Sorry if this awful coincidence is just that but somehow I feel like this has all been done before or is it you guys seem to be all clones in your anti-catholic tactics. Look if its not you apologize but the expereince was actual and your responses are overly familiar.. This line that James White and WIlliam Webster are godly men and that my motive was suspect because they personally felt books and tapes were meaningless in converstions but on the other hand sold them to convert others is another tactic used by Alpha and Omega's assistance. Man if your not working for them you should as they use the exact same mantras. Of course the fact you used many of the same apologetic materials as Aplah and Omega is another suscipion. Oh well tell your twin in bizarro land that he has an imposter.

7 comments:

Mathetes said...

The counter-response is the product of a paranoid mind. Oh well, hopefully he likes his "free" Roman Catholic Church. Well, until he gets his next email from the Catholic Answers forums.

Anonymous said...

"Well thanks to your greed and James White and the generosity of the Bible Christian Society who offered a lot of materails for nothing I am a catholic who happens to be debating your false claims again and again. "


Speaking as a Catholic myself, I can't imagine how not getting positive response when asking for a price break translates into conversion to the Church.

There are many reasons to embrace Catholic Christianity: The glory of Jesus, the fullness of salvation, the sacred truth of the gospels, the sacred tradition of the Church, the holy sacraments, the examples of the saints throughout the ages... but for book discounts?

Albert said...

"There are many reasons to embrace Catholic Christianity: The glory of Jesus, the fullness of salvation, the sacred truth of the gospels, the sacred tradition of the Church, the holy sacraments, the examples of the saints throughout the ages... but for book discounts?"

Actually, there are more reasons why one should not be Roman Catholic based on the testimony of both Scripture and history. For more information, read this article from a former Roman Catholic. DID I REALLY LEAVE THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH?: http://www.christiantruth.com/Testimony.html

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Wisdom,

Having read what was posted here, I wonder if I might prevail upon you to reconsider your statements. Do you really mean to say that your conversion to Catholicism hinged upon some perceived slight from someone else? What if you were to hear a Catholic say, for example, that Art Sippo insulted him so he became Protestant? Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

You must understand that it is the function of the apologist, on either side of the Tiber, to be biased toward his own communion. I am unfamiliar with this idea of the "objective Protestant," unless if by that you mean one who won't argue against your position, and doesn't defend his sources as being accurate and reliable.

I hope in future you will be able to assess the differences between Catholic and Protestant doctrine more thoughtfully and a bit less emotionally.

Regarding your harsh words for Swan, White, etc., I would challenge you to consider introspectively whether it is the Holy Spirit of God that leads you to speak this way of them, or if there is something else in operation here.

At any rate, I think if you can steer away from personal attacks, and deal with the issues at hand, you will do well.

All God's Best,

Pilgrimsarbour

GeneMBridges said...

conversion to the Church.

Algo says he was exploring Christianity, not Catholicism, yet when "Anonymous" replies, he speaks of conversion to the Church.

So, on the one hand Protestants are "separated brethren," but when we're talking about conversion to Christianity, it quickly becomes "conversion to 'the Church.'" Seems to me that this proves that, ultimately, for Romanists, it's not about converting to Christ -it's about converting to Rome. They can't help but say it.

Anonymous said...

"Algo says he was exploring Christianity, not Catholicism, yet when "Anonymous" replies, he speaks of conversion to the Church."

Gene:

What I wrote was utterly consistent with Catholic understanding.



As you likely already know, we confess that the churches of the Reformation are nor "Churches" in the proper sense, yet at the same time we also acknowledge that these churches have been and remain instruments of Salvation--and that in as much as they are it reflects the working of the true Church in them through Christ. The separated brethren are not in full communion with the Church by their own testimony. Many even claim they are not even in partial communion with her. For members of these communions to be restored to full communion, it obviously requires their conversion.
Clearly you do not and will not agree with these beliefs; however, that disbelief doesn't give you license to misrepresent them, whether intentionally or through indifference to the actual teachings and practices you criticize. Should your false witness be unintentional, then you are duly corrected, and from this time forward, culpable, should you continue to do so of your own free will. That is entirely up to you.

Anonymous said...

"So, on the one hand Protestants are "separated brethren," but when we're talking about conversion to Christianity, it quickly becomes "conversion to 'the Church.'"

Ummm-- it was "Algo" who said he converted to the Christianity in the Church, as opposed to converted to it via Protestantism.