Sunday, January 21, 2007

Keith Green Visits the Envoy Boards

The late Keith Green was a contemporary Christian singer/songwriter from the late 1970, early 1980’s. Keith died some years back in a plane crash. I had not realized that Keith wrote a document entitled, The Catholic Chronicles. The Catholic folks over at Envoy have begun discussing his views, Envoy style:

It would appear on closer scrutiny (just read the "Chronicles") that Keith, however sincere, was sincerely misguided at best, or a down-right theological bonehead in complete rebellion to Christ's Church at worst.”

We must always remember that Protestantism in all of its forms is derived from disobedience and rebellion against the Church and authority that God himself established. As such, every Protestant is rightly threatened by the claims of the Catholic Church. To preserve their man-made religions they must attack our God-founded one.”

Well, I don’t really have a horse in this race. I just found this topic interesting, as I remember Keith’s music. Some of what Keith said is right on the money:

"The Council of Trent, in its opposition to the reformer's doctrine of justification by faith, and in defense of its doctrine of penance, declared: "Whoever shall affirm that men are justified solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ... let him be accursed" (Council of Trent, section 6.) And the Catholic Almanac says, "Penance is necessary for salvation...and was instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins". (pp. 269, 559.) The modern church teachings completely concur: "Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ's part; there is much to be done on ours."("The Apostles Creed" published by the Knights of Columbus, pp 18-19.)

16 comments:

John Bugay said...

James, I remember that Keith Green series well. It greatly shaped my decision to leave the Catholic Church back then. (His fourth, and concluding brochure, was taken virtually word for word, if I recall, from the conclusion of Boettner's work on Roman Catholicism. Though his others in the series seemed to be more original work.

John

FM483 said...

I read the treatise by Green. It is clear to me that he is totally unaware of the ancient catholic faith as professed in Confessional Lutheranism! Green writes as if all "protestants" disagree with everything the ancient church practiced and taught. If he were alive today, I would suggest that Green seiously consider Lutheranism: it is neither Roman Catholic nor protestant, but rather biblical. Many people who leave the Roman church flee to either protestanism in general or Eastern Orthodoxy, and usually overlook Lutheranism. Similarly, many Evangelicals, such as Scott Hahn, in their search for the ancient catholic faith, go directly to Rome and fail to consider Lutheranism.

Frank Marron

Ric said...

In Envoy style??? I this this style runs across the board! I just listened to a MP3 from the (ahem) "Bible Christian Society" (http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download) on:
"Debate: Sola Fide (Are We Saved by Faith Alone?)" Which is a debate on salvation between John Martignoni and Dr. James Saxon.

I found this "style" even in this debate even on a one to one bases. Dr. Saxon was very polite and offered only Biblical proof of Sola Fide while in Mr. Martignoni's rebuttals were all almost if not blatant personal attacks against Dr. Saxon without the objective discussion on the subject at hand.

If I were Mr. Martignoni I would be embarrassed to publicly post that debate because of the self-evident style between the two debaters.

But then I can see the Roman Catholic apologists all whooping and hollering and patting each other on their backs with every unbiblical jab that Mr. Martignoni takes at Dr. Saxon!

Oy!

In God's Grace,
Ric

James Swan said...

John-

Thanks for the info about Green's use of Boettner. Again, this topic was more of curiousity for me- I know green was neither Lutheran or Reformed, so I don't expect him to be thuroughly reliable. However, not everything he says "Jack Chick-ish".

I was actually not a big Green fan. I stood outside a Bible college, I think in 1980, for a few hours trying to get in to see him perform. The show sold out very quickly, as did the second show.

Frank-
True, many don't consider Lutheranism. I see Christians in all different kinds of denominations, and, as you and I discussed once before, even some of those in the RCC are probably Christians, this depite the offical teaching of Rome.

As to whether or not Lutheranism is the true visible church, all the Lutheran churches i've visited were very liberal.

Ric-
Thanks for the MP3 link. I'm familiar with the RC guy in the debate. I look forward to hearing it.

Ree said...

I think I still have those Keith Green "Catholic Chronicle" tracts, although I haven't looked at them for almost twenty years. Keith was only a Christian for, I believe, seven years, before he died, and he wasn't very theologically astute. For example, he was a big proponent of Charles Finney. I was converted after Keith Green's death, so I never even heard of him when he was still alive, but I loved his music when I was a new Christian, and I guess because of his zeal, I was inclined to put a lot of stock into what he said. That opinion changed, obviously, over time, though. Who knows what direction he might have gone in if he were still alive.

Ric said...

Great James, send me feedback if you can.

Thanks in advance!

In God's Grace,
Ric

FM483 said...

James wrote:

"As to whether or not Lutheranism is the true visible church, all the Lutheran churches i've visited were very liberal."

MY RESPONSE:

Most churches which have the label "Lutheran" in their names are really not so. Many may have been so in previous decades, but have abandoned what makes them truly Lutheran: adherrance to the Lutheran Confessions as contained in the Book of Concord of 1580. Fortunately I belong to the LCMS which has successfully withstood the onslaughts of the secular world. I am not saying that each and every local parish are equally committed to the Lutheran Confessions, but rather that the synod as a whole, by the grace of God, has remained faithful.

Frank Marron

Ric said...

I agree with Frank, I was a member of the LCMS myself at one time. The LCMS did have a internal fight with liberalism, and praise God that the liberals lost!

In God's Grace,
Ric

Churchmouse said...

Ah, Keith Green. I really loved his music and clearly remember his Catholic Chronicles. I remember he pulled them out of circulation because he felt that it didn't convey the spirit of Christian love, albeit he never reneged on the content or his convictions regarding Romanism. I really did enjoy his ministry, his zeal for missions, and his cry for "no compromise" in the Christian faith. Did you hear the DL program Dr. White did with Steve Camp regarding Green? Here's the link just in case: http://www.straitgate.com/jw062202.ram

Peace,
Ray

James Swan said...

Ray-

Keith Green wasn't "heavy" enough for me. For Christian music, I was into the Resurrection Band, Jerusalem, Barnabas, etc.

Probably the biggest CCM musical influence on me was Larry Norman. I still listen to his music. I have a massive collection of his music. His albums, Only Visiting This Planet, Something New Under The Son, and the quasi-bootleg, Roll Away The Stone really inspired me as a kid.

Alos, Phil Keaggy was a fav...I just saw him in concert a week or two ago (I haven't seen him in nearly 20 years). He brought out Tony Levin (Bass player for King Crimson, Peter Gabriel) and Drummer Jerry Moratta (Peter Gabriel, big studio session guy) to jam with him. They were pretty awful, but it was a lot of fun to see Phil with these guys.

Also special mention should be given to Bruce Cockburn- not sure how "Christian" his music still is, but his stuff is always quality.

Churchmouse said...

Hi Jim,

I'm really diverse in my musical tastes. Although I liked Keith, it wasn't necessarily the music as much as the lyrical content that really spoke to me. Yes, I too, liked the heavier stuff as well, especially Rez. It wasn't unusual to run into Glen Kaiser, Wendi, or the other band members by the JPUSA (Friendly Towers) in Uptown Chicago. Keaggy? He's a monster on the guitar and I really liked his earlier stuff, specifically the softer "Ph'lip Side." I don't know what it means, but he's an ex-Catholic yet he's been on EWTN radio and TV a few times as of late. Cockburn? I'm not to familiar with, but I "Googled" and found this article by him: http://www.things.org/music/bruce_cockburn/articles/third_way.html

Peace,
Ray

James Swan said...

Churchmouse-

I first saw Rez right before "Colours" came out. As a little teeny-bopper, they blew my mind. That album, is still, in my opinion the best they ever did. they never topped it. I can still put it on, and really enjoy it.

I still have my old CCM albums, and I burn them off onto CD when I have time. Some of the stuff is awful. some of it is funny.

In the awful category, I found my cassette of Quickflight (a new wave band) and The Daniel Band (wimpy rock)

In the funny category- The first Barnabas album, and the Sweedish band Jerusalem. I remember seeing Jerusalem, and they were loud and awesome. Now when i listen back, the music just sounds a bit funny. It must be the effects of old age.

Churchmouse said...

I know exactly what you mean, Jim. I have stuff on cassette and vinyl of the "scratching my head" variety. I can't believe I listened to it, but I can't get rid of it. Much of it has already been burned to CD. Amongst them David and the Giants, Daniel Amos, and, yes, one that brings me back to the days of the Jesus Movement, David Meece <<he says so very sheepishly>>. Fact is, if I run into any of these OOP records at the thrift shops, I buy them and hide them away before anyone sees them :-)

Peace,
Ray

James Swan said...

somewhere I have a tape of daniel Amos demos and studio sessions from either alarma or the horrendous disc-

Monica said...

To Ric,

I can understand why you thought John Martignoni's responses seemed personal, in the debate with Dr Saxon, because he has an intense sound to his voice. But, if you heard him more, you'd understand he isn't being personal. He did rebut Dr Saxon's verses and opinions, but he did so with an abundance of Bible verses. I encourage you to listen again with an open mind. Also, please consider that Dr Saxon's story of his personal experience is irrelevant in a logical debate. More...Dr Saxon related how he was more comfortable not being Catholic, that being called to perfection was too difficult. But, Jesus calls us to perfection in Matt 5:48. And, Dr Saxon said if our works were added to Jesus' work, Jesus work would be somehow diminished. I'm sorry, I don't understand the logic of that, either. Why and how would human works have any effect on the Divine? Plus, in this regard, St Paul, in Coloss 1:24, said, "I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I AM FILLING UP WHAT IS LACKING IN THE AFFLICTIONS OF CHRIST on behalf of His Body [the Church]." Consider Mr M's example of the large group of the 'Redeemed' having the subsets of the 'Redeemed, yet unsaved,' and the 'Redeemed and saved.' Christ did everything He needed to do to redeem the world. But we need to DO something on our own behalf to respond, to be saved.

God's blessings to you and yours,
Monica

Monica said...

To Jim,
Please accept this humble suggestion. You said that some RCC are 'probably Christians,' despite the teaching of Rome. What teaching might that be? Please look at history. Before the Protestant Reformation, there was only one Christian Church, the Catholic Church, tracing back--visibly--its history to Christ--as encyclopedias and histories verify. Please consider what a former Anglican, John Newman, said, 'To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant.' (He became a Catholic priest, cardinal, and saint.) And, Bishop Sheen, who used to have a weekly TV program in the 50's and 60's--that won TV awards!--said, (paraphrased), There is only a handful who disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches. But, there are thousands who disagree with what they 'think' the Catholic Church teaches.
Many blessings,
Monica